Landed! Now what? with Erika Bailey

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World, this podcast that interviews law professionals from all over the world and gets to share a little bit more about what does it mean to be a lawyer, what does it mean to be a lawyer Somewhere Else, and we are in a special series right now. And I would say a series within the series. We're on a series talking about what the legal profession is in Canada, what it means, and so many other details. Getting to interview lots of lawyers and interesting professionals around here. In the series within the series, I've been talking to Erica Bailey from the University of Toronto Faculty of Law, and she's been taking the place of host and getting to ask me a couple questions. So Erika, can you remind some of our folks here listening, or those that didn't have the chance to listen to the other episodes, what we are doing together? Thanks again for joining me. Yeah, of course, Claudio. Thank you so much for the invitation back. I was worried I wouldn't get a return visit, but looks like you liked the last conversation. So hi everybody. This is Erika Bailey. I use she and her pronouns, and I am the Graduate Career Advisor at the Faculty of Law at the University of Toronto. And I have the great privilege of working for and alongside internationally trained lawyers and law students in our graduate programs as they're navigating the complexities of licensing in Canada. One of the reasons why I love this is because I get to be creative and thoughtful with and for students. And when Claudio had first approached me, he asked me if he could please interview me on some topics, and I thought, sure. But I think what the most important part of this is that Claudio was literally about to step on a plane just a few days later, and I thought, what an interesting moment in time that you all, as his listeners, can listen to his story of what it means to transition into, you know, a program, what it means to study in another country, the interesting surprises, the challenges that you face. And so I'm acting with the wonderful generosity that Claudio has offered me to be co-host, to ask the questions of Claudio so you can hear his stories. And that's why I'm here today. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, once again, really appreciate you joining along in this project. And let's get started with today's episode. Absolutely. We are 19 days into the semester, 19 business days, 27 days into September. And Claudio, you have got on a plane, you've moved your family to Canada, you have been to the 75th anniversary of the Faculty of Law, you have participated in a bunch of activities in class, in your career, and outside. And so why don't we get started with the What's been exciting since you got here? Well, that's a great question. Well, it starts up with the building up of excitement all the way from last year, right? So I got admitted into the program December last year. So it's been, you know, in a way almost a whole year that I have been planning to come. And it's just very exciting to make that a reality. But actually landing in Canada and starting the project, just as exciting. But it's definitely met with lots of exciting things, lots of challenges. Anyways, trying to think about here, week 1, you know, like just getting here. What were the first few things we had to do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was something that I was sharing with people. You know, I'm thinking about my phone calls with my family, you know, back in Brazil. And a few of the first things that everybody usually have to do, you know, open a bank account, get a phone plan. So those are, I guess, some of the, the first few things that I had to do here. And I was pleasantly surprised with like how easy it was in a way, you know, even though I feel like most countries in the world have some, you know, bureaucracy. And that's in a way important to make sure that we keep everybody safe and private. But happily everything worked out really well. It was fairly easy to open a bank account, fairly easy to have access to a phone plan. So that's how it started. Started very well, positively surprised. And, and then when we get to class, right, our first, first time is also very exciting. Our first few weeks are usually a little more intensive, right? So our, our first weeks were from classes from Thursday through Sunday. So basically 4 days, very intensive. The classes on Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday were all day long, and Friday was half a day. But still, it was quite a lot. But what excited me the most after leaving the first weekend of classes was really noticing that I was learning lots of new things. And I feel like in a way, not trying to be proud or anything, but as we go after our bachelor's program and we start to, you know, go to lectures and go to events and conferences, we end up hearing a lot about the same topics, right? It's awesome that people always have, you know, new ideas, new perspectives. But usually you have a general idea of what they're talking about or how that's going to go. But classes were really good for me because they definitely impressed me by how many new things I learned, be it in the Canadian system or being like, you know, just legal writing. So it was just very, very nice. So what— let's get into some of the details there. Like, what was one of the, let's say, assumptions you may have gone into class with that you suddenly realized, oh, hang on a minute, this I'm not sure I can, like, pinpoint something very specific about that, but let's, let's just come up with a few very interesting things from my point of view. So first of all, we go to our first class and, and we start learning about Canadian history, right? I felt, I felt a little like I should have researched a little more about this country before moving in. Yeah, I was, I was impressed. It was very nice to know a little bit of, like, How the Constitution became a thing that actually up to this day we use one of the documents that constitutes the Canadian Constitution is the British North American Act, which was basically a law made by England that still is here and valid to the date. Of course, amendments were made, changes and all of that, but it's just impressive and and it comes from a like a rich history. So I was very impressed by that. I did not know that when we talk about sources of law, for example, Canada also is considering. Indigenous laws as well as part of its system. So I think that's very, very impressive and wonderful. Maybe an example we should follow all over Americas, you know, places that had nations that lived here before colonization. Beyond that, also we went to legal writing class and legal research class, and it was just so very good, you know, to kind of have principles that we should write by. I feel like in many countries, legal training has a lot to do with writing very flowery, very nice, you know, using hard words, and they even have all these jokes about, hey, you gotta write very sophisticated because that's what people pay you to do, right? But I love the approach here because for the most part, we just want to make sure that we're writing plain English that everybody can understand. And we have a few kind of guiding principles when we write. We, we write thinking that everybody is very busy and they, they don't have a lot of time, so we want to make sure that we're clear, we are concise, So just so many little things that, that kind of like added up. So I just, it just excited me a lot to, to keep learning, you know? And I think, if I may, Claudio, I think that the last point you make links to the careers as you're presenting yourself as a candidate in the labor market here. And I wonder if we could talk a little bit about your experience of trying to articulate your past experience from around the world and how you might tailor it into this job market that you and I have recently discussed. Fantastic. Well, there's a lot to it that is very transferable, right? So when we speak about the legal field specifically, maybe our rules are not the same, our laws are not necessarily the same, but a lot of the principles are very much worldwide applicable, and a lot of the skills are very much transferable. So when we, when we do legal research in civil law in Brazil, It might be more looking like looking at a statute, looking at a law, but it also has a lot of looking for precedents. And we still very much like here have different levels of courts. So we have a primary court, we have an appeal court, we have a Supreme Court. So I find that a lot of it, it's very much transferable. Maybe lawyers back in Brazil will have more administrative tasks that here are done by clerks and legal assistants. But still, I think those are all like important skills to have. So I feel a lot of it is very transferable. And something that I found very interesting is that I'm not sure we mentioned this in the last episode, but when talking about Articlely and talking about summer that I know we touched on, we started our applications way back then and a couple months back, back in June, July, right? And just going, going forward now. Um, and having the opportunity to do interviews was very fantastic. That also tells me a lot about, uh, the economy being good, tells me about, you know, people are hiring, the legal market is very much active. So that gives you hope for what a career could look like. And I was so fortunate to meet with one of the GPLLM alumni and now having the opportunity to help him with some matters in his law firm. Well, that's wonderful, Claudio. And I think when you're touching on the careers, I wonder if you could discuss how you experienced— now, interviews look and sound very different depending on the nature of the interview. Some can be very, very short, and some are much longer or even days long. But I'm curious, can you describe some of the things that you noticed about interviewing here that was maybe either different or comforting because it's similar for you, recognizing that some of your listeners may be from many parts of the world? So I'm just curious if you could reflect on interviewing in Of course. Of course. Yes. First of all, my, my experience interviewing in Brazil, it's not ginormous or anything like that. So my point of view is very much personal from my personal experiences, right? As pretty much everything in this podcast, but something that I found very interesting and that I had this feeling for most of the interviews I had the opportunity to participate is that there was a genuine interest in knowing who you are and kind of getting to understand a little bit of your personality. And seeing how you deal with different circumstances, be it the way they phrase the question or like straight up a question asking about, you know, how you deal with different circumstances, different situations. So that was, I think it was very interesting. I also, I guess I never had the experience of people like making jokes in an interview before. I was interviewed, all of my interview experiences actually were done by panels. So it wasn't only one person, it was at least 2 people. And then I had this one interview that had 6 people in it. So it was a lot of people. I felt very important. It was very nice. Some other things that I, that I thought were different, and I guess they also change by market and all of that. And I had one of the interviews that I was assigned to do a presentation during the interview. I would have 10 minutes to do a presentation on a topic. And they gave me the topic and said basically, hey, we'd love to see you presenting about this. Another, another of the interviews I did with one of the cities in the area also asked me to, to submit a written, the, the writing of a case before our interview so that we would discuss it through the interview. So very much like this, tasks or assignments was not something that I was used to. So I really enjoyed, you know, the opportunity to give them a little bit of a sample of my work. And I thought that was very meaningful to have that opportunity to show them a little more than just, you know, in a moment of being nervous, not be able to show my best self. Having that opportunity, I felt it made it even more fun and exciting to do it. Oh, absolutely. And I think it's a great opportunity to learn how to express who you are in relation to the current context. So doing your research, which I know you did, making sure that you understood understood the nature of the employers to the best that, to the extent that you are able, I think was a great benefit as well. And I think also it's too bad that you didn't get to have your legal research and writing course before some of those assignments. But, you know, moving back to your assignments, I'm more curious how you're noticing the coursework in terms of like writing your assignments, doing the research. What difference are you noticing compared to, you know, what you had anticipated? Well, that's a, that's a great one. I feel like back in my law, you know, education so far, I never had too much of assignments that were supposed to be really like a piece of work that you'd use at a work environment. Most of them were usually a research paper, research about this topic, give me a comment about this case, but they were never write a legal memo about this hypothetical situation. So I feel like these are very useful in a way that allow me to actually do what my work will be like in a day-to-day circumstance. And I'm enjoying this kind of assignment that is very much task-based. It helps me to pretty much train on what I would do in a normal work setting. So I really appreciate that perspective that I'm seeing. And also, of course, as I mentioned, the caveats and different things of being in a different country, being in a different culture, but really having this very much laid out from like, hey, think that you're writing for a busy person. Hey, do this. Hey, do that. You know, very much guided. There's a few challenges, of course, like now we got to do references in McGill Guide. You know, I never did McGill before. Ooh. So we have our own system in Brazil. When I was in the US, I had to learn a little bit of Bluebook citation and now learning a little bit of McGill. But it's generally pretty easy and, you know, easy to research if you don't know. So it's been pretty exciting. I was also happy to learn that Canada adopted a standard way to cite cases. So if I'm not mistaken, cases from, I would just say after 2000s to be safe, they kind of have a uniform way of citation. So that's very helpful too because you can put that into any kind of research platform, any database, and it will help you to find the case. So that also is very helpful when writing a test or writing an exam and having to cite that case. So just a lot of, a lot of exciting and interesting new things for me, that's for sure. Yeah. And what are some of the tips and tricks? So you already talked about, you know, the value of the universal citing approach, but what are some of the other tips and tricks that you are learning about how to juggle life and academics and advancing your career? Of course. Well, from my personal experience so far, there's a few things, right? So first, I mentioned that school is a little long. A lot of my colleagues have been out of school for a while, so it's been definitely an interesting experience, you know, building a little bit of endurance again and making sure that our attention span gets expanded through the program. Of course, it's, it's been very interesting, and I'm I tried to do a little research and see what people are doing out there to, to make sure that they can stay focused for a long, long amount of times. And a lot of tips look like handwriting, you know, make notes actually using your hands, not only typing. That will help you to recall, but also will help you to stay present in the moment. Drinking water through the day, chewing gum. So there's just a few little things. And that's about like staying alert during class. And I'm saying that just because to give a little more context, right? Our classes would start at like 9 AM, finish at 5 PM. And don't get me wrong, professors are very engaging. They're really good at what they're doing. It's just, I guess, naturally we just— our attention starts to go down at some point, right? So it's awesome to use these resources that can help us to refocus. Well, I mean, different people have energy at different times of day. You know, morning people find the afternoons hard. Afternoon people find the mornings terrible, and we provide coffee obviously throughout. But I think it's, uh, it is a— it could be a real challenge, like you say, to stay focused. But also your brains get full. It's such— it's new information, but it's not. And so it's really using that critical discernment of what you're hearing and what does that mean, you know, in turn in relation to what you know already, and what does that mean for how you might be practicing law when you establish your career. Of course. And if I may add, before I mention some of the other aspects of tips and career, etc., one of the things that I noticed that most of us doing the class, we naturally tend to compare it to how it would be in our home countries. So a lot of my colleagues are internationally trained lawyers, accomplished in their careers back in their home countries, and they just can't help but— and all of us usually can't help but think about hey, this is how it would work in our home country. Like, if this same case occurred, this is how— this is what the outcome would be. So that has been very interesting. And I guess it uses a little bit more of brainpower to, you know, do that comparison that you don't even do because you want to. Your brain kind of just leads you there, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think it's very useful. I think especially, you know, considering the context in which we find ourselves is Toronto, 52— over 52% of of people living in Toronto were born outside of Canada, and you can only imagine just how many were born into different legal systems. And so there are multiple perspectives that come into the work for clients, for lawyers, for government, for, you know, public interest. And so I think this sort of global discourse in a local context is a fascinating part. And I'm curious if you've learned a little bit about other people in other parts of the world, although I know yourself to be a fairly global citizen. I'm curious if you're noticing something around that. Absolutely. And when you first asked about careers and all of that, I feel like people are a big ingredient in all of these, of course. I've been learning so much with my colleagues every class. Of course, the course is great and we learn a lot in the coursework, but it's also great to get to know their stories in the breaks. And I'm so grateful we have that. You have those breaks to chat. I'm learning a lot about people's personal history. As of now, you know, a lot of people are sharing where they come from, how— what was the current situation of the legal system in their country. So it's just been very, very interesting to see what a broad array of experiences we have inside the same classroom. I don't know specific statistics to know like how many countries are represented or anything like that, but it's just so, so very interesting in that sense. And then in another sense, I feel like so many of the participants of the course are either first-generation Canadians or they are Canadians who sought their education abroad, came back to the country now. So everybody has definitely a lot to contribute and to share. And it's been very powerful to hear all of those stories and experiences. Besides that, I'm getting to know people in different events I'm attending. I have the opportunity to, you know, attend a few conferences so far. And I think that's beautiful about being a student, because as soon as I drop this piece of information and say, oh, hi, I'm a student, and give this information, people are so willing to share more with you and to give you tips and to let you go to conferences and so many things. So I'm really, really trying to enjoy to the fullest this opportunity to be a student here right now and to do things that students do, you know, exploring getting to know people. So it's definitely been a lot of fun. Well, you're reminding me, Claudio, absolutely, those networking opportunities, the conferences where you all get together, people who are interested in particular practices or topics, just such a fascinating place to meet people. And it's great to hear you're receiving moments of mentorship even in those spaces. But you're making me remember that you and I and a few other students from our program were at the 75th 25th anniversary of the foundation of the Faculty of Law here at the University of Toronto. I'm curious if you could reflect on what it was like to step into that event because it was, you know, could you, could you describe what you saw and what you understood about the importance of the moment? Of course. It was such a good event, first of all. I find that the university is just so good at, you know, preparing everything all to the smallest details, and I find that so awesome. But being at the event was very meaningful First, because the Faculty of Law is a very prestigious organization. So feeling that you belong in that place is something very, very powerful to see ourselves there. But also, it was impressive for me to get to see all the leadership of the faculty, you know, previous deans and people who were students in a way in the same place that I am right now that accomplished a lot in their lives. that became ambassadors, that became Supreme Court justices. So it was just very incredible to be in that same environment. And not only that, but also seeing the other side of those people. We had the opportunity to see Law Follies, that from what I heard, it's a very Canadian law school tradition where you have, you know, pretty much like standup. I don't know if that's the best way to describe it, but usually there's a lot of humor thrown there. And it was just impressive and so nice to see, you know, a lot of the leadership also having that humorous, good side to it. So we love listening to their lectures. We love seeing what they have to teach us about the law, but it's just awesome to see people as people and people throwing jokes and all of those things. So it was just very, very nice to be a part of the event and getting to connect with all those people that made the faculty be what it is today. And what do you think that this tells us about being a legal professional here in Canada? Well, it definitely tells that it's— first of all, I feel like a tight-knit community, and it's good to be part of a community. I like to belong. I like to be part of a community. But it also shows that there's a lot of generosity, a lot of giving back, and a lot of an interest to make sure that the future generations that are going to enjoy those same resources you once had, um, they, they want to make sure that we see them there and that in a way they're there for us, maybe more figuratively than, than really being there. But it's, that's how I felt. I felt like I could, you know, rely on all of these people's incredible experiences and that a legal foundation at the faculty would be so important for my career. It gave me perspective and hope for what I hope to be, you know, 50 years from now, me telling about what my legal journey was, you know. Wonderful. Thank you so much. And indeed, it is a very close-knit very deeply interconnected group of professionals, thinkers, theorists, judges, and more. And it is a very rich community and we're very, very fortunate to be able to be in community together. I have 2 more questions, but before we get to them, Claudio, I'm curious, are there some other things we didn't touch on that you want to make sure your podcast audience want to know about this moment in time in your life? Well, I think just a funny side note on a very personal side right now. Is that my wife is 36 weeks pregnant. So anytime now we could be having a baby. So super excited about that. And something exciting about that too is that just really close to the university, about 2 blocks away, for those of you who haven't been to Toronto or anything else, there's a bunch of hospitals, right? Highly specialized hospitals. Very respectable, and that's where that's where it's going to happen. We even laughed that maybe I'll be taking a test, and when when I get out of the test, turn on my phone, I'll get a message saying like, "Hey, meet meet me at the hospital down the block." Just very grateful that, and and it's so exciting that it's going to happen the way it's happening, just because it it's definitely you know first of all nice for for geographical location. But then I feel like it gives a whole, you know, another layer of meaning as to, you know, the neighbourhood where the university is at and in a way where, you know, my son or daughter is going to be born. So that's just pretty exciting on that note. Yeah, and this may be your very first Canadian in the family. Yep, that's right. That's right. Wow. Well, if you could go back to you one week before you got on that flight, Is there some advice you'd like to give to past you? Hmm. Wow. Well, you see, I don't think there is any advice on like things to bring or anything like that, but maybe a good piece of advice that I feel like all of us can always benefit. It's just always to, you know, be yourself, have a good time wherever you go. Don't be constrained by being shy or something like that. Don't let that keep you from talking to people, from getting to know people's stories, from asking for help. All these things really have been lessons that I learn every time more. As you said, this is a very close community, so people are so open to helping. And I feel like at points, maybe on the first few interactions with some people, I have been a little more shy to ask things or even to get to know them a little better. I don't regret it per se, because happily I got the opportunity to meet people that I didn't talk right away. But, you know, I just wish maybe that I would have talked with them, like, right from the get-go, you know? So it's just— that's the only thing that maybe I would tell myself would be like, hey, just be super open. Don't let your shyness keep you. Just go and talk to them. They have a wonderful story to share. That's great advice. It speaks to what my final question is for you. And obviously, The fact that you have a little child coming into your family will be the most exciting thing in the time ahead, I'm imagining. But that said, you know, when you look to the days and weeks, months ahead, what are you most looking forward to? Hmm. I'm definitely looking forward to being more and more integrated with the market. Definitely, you know, being at a law firm working in this area that I that I chose for my life and that I love so much. And definitely, you know, keeping and maintaining these friendships. I know the program and what we learn is so fundamental, but I really hope that I can keep these friendships for the rest of my life and kind of carry them forward so that when U of T completes its 100 and 125 years, I can come with them and, you know, crack jokes from the stage. From the stage as well. We'll start auditioning for you soon. There you go. There you go. Yeah. The collegiality is just amazing. Yeah, it really is. It's, it's always such a pleasure to see people laughing and talking, sharing stories and supporting one another. And Claudio, as always, it's, it's such a privilege to be able to speak with you. And I want to thank you, I think on behalf of all of your listeners, for your openness to really doing this experiment to actually share more about your journey. So thank you for this time together. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for everybody for— thank you everybody for tuning in, and we hope to see you on the next— on another episode sometime soon. Thank you.