Elder Law, the ITL Landscape, and the Ecosystem of Law with Rachel A. Sachs

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Hey listeners, the largest gathering of internationally trained lawyers in Canada is happening at the ITO conference in Toronto on April 24th and 25th. Secure your spot at the conference and gala today by registering on www.itlconference.ca. See you at the Marriott downtown. Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of Studying Law around the World. Today I have the opportunity to host Rachel Sachs. She's a Filipino, German, Canadian lawyer striving to improve accessibility to the law for her clients. She has intentionally designed her practice for older adults in memory of her much belonged grandparents and as a way to honor the many wonderful older adults who have impacted and influenced her life. Thank you so much for being in the podcast today. Really, really appreciate you being here, Rachel. Paul, thank you so much for having me, Claudio. It's such a treat to be put off next to some of the fabulous voices that you've had so far. That's very kind of you. I was very much looking forward to having you in the podcast today. And just start us off. I'd love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners and share a little bit about your back. OK, so well you did a great introduction to start with, but so I founded my practice soon after my call to the bar in 2017. Sacks Law Professional Corporation. We focus on elder law, estates and civil litigation, mostly for older and aging adults across Ontario. But recently I have started taking on some disability cases as well because a lot of the similarity and the overlap refer to myself as a seniors lawyer specifically because most of my work focuses on protecting the autonomy, dignity rights of older adults, making sure that they have an opportunity to feel heard within the law, which is something that like very frequently get told that they just are feeling ignored and know kind of baffled by everything times little baffled by everything. I am also mixed race. And so growing up, I kind of felt like I never really quite fit into one box. And so I think that sort of general sense of standing on the outside kind of taught me to build my own place. And I've done that sort of repeatedly throughout my life and now with my practice. And I've always had this, I guess, words to try and help folks who might have also had similar experiences or been made to feel like outsiders in a lot of different contexts. And I think it has sort of coloured my general world view. The organizations I was engaged with early on in the law, like the OA's Women Lawyers Forum and Rhoda and other organizations like that doing, you know, some access to justice work early on as well. And yeah, so I, I studied in the UK for law school. I also studied in Canada various places. And then I did the law practice program. And that's I guess how I. Got here for sharing a little bit of that and and thanks for explaining a little bit about this this design of your practice with older adults in mind. I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking your website does mention you know a little bit about the influence of your grandparents. So why don't you ask, you know, if those family experiences, how they shaped the way you see law and service today, since you already mentioned a little bit of helping inform your. Yeah, definitely. Well, I think there were a couple of things. When I was little, I was an avid reader. I read far more than I read now. I wish I could get back to that, but I think we all do. Once we get into the practice of law, it's just like reading all sort of becomes a chore as well. But I read a lot and it was kind of my escape and my, I had two older brothers. And when I was, I think about 12, my eldest brother suffered a pretty severe accident that left him quadriplegic. And so all of a sudden, you know, my family was cast into this sort of legal battle against the city of Alhambra, which city, one of the Great Lakes where he'd had his injury. And it was just, you know, this whole awful thing with insurance and, you know, like 10 lawyers from the insurance company. And my brother is 2 lawyers who'd taken his case pro bono. And I think like the way that they interact, the lawyers interact with my brother, the way that they treated him, the kind of lack of appropriate care system was in place for him also really impacted a lot of my early sort of outlooks of what, what a lawyer does and what what a lawyer should be doing. And then with my grandparents, I was very close throughout all of my childhood to my grandparents. And around that time, what happened to my brother, you know, my, my grandfather also passed away at a similar point in time. And we were, we were so, so very tight. He was my absolute favorite relative. You know, he'd been through a lot, but was always extremely cheerful and happy and all. He was just always there for us. So like he just accomplished so much throughout his life And he could do anything. He could grow any plants. He, you know, make it the most amazing doughnuts, bread, whatever. And he was just always there like always like a stalwart, sturdy man in the midst of everything. And my grandmother, she was a real fighter. She did not have, you know, any formal education in her life. She got married quite young. She never, she never really learned to read. And she managed when she came to Canada to buy three properties, you know, men and paid them all off and they'll all fully owned. And she ran her own bed and breakfast company for, you know, a long time, like most of my childhood. And it was just, you know, having her be that while I was growing up and then when I came back from university to find her kind of reverting back to being a child because of her dementia. And then having to help with my, you know, my dad with caring for her and making sure that she was safe and that she was getting access to the services that she needed. And just saying like all the absolute failings in home care, you know, it took me a really long time to get to the seniors law practice. Like I didn't start out that way. I was practicing like try my head and all kinds of other things before this. But eventually like it just sort of once I was able to sort of come to terms with her death after that, which happened actually right at the end of the LP or in the middle of the LP. It was not good time. And that's how I just kind of a couple of years later decided, you know, like this is something that I I think I need to do. I'm was at a place where I could really properly kind of go all into it. So right before the pandemic, I decided this is a great time to start a practice for older adults. Yeah, what a story. I'm glad, you know, you see this opportunity to, you know, with your professional endeavors to honor their memory and and that's, that's truly beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Thinking about a little bit about, about what you said on your introduction, you did mention that you studied in Canada and abroad. And I'm curious too, I feel like a lot of people that I speak with in the podcast, when they have these, these opportunities to, you know, get you go to another country, see, I'll sometimes another system or even like a very similar system does things differently. It usually informs a lot of the worldview. It does bring a lot of insights and really lots of good memories for the rest of peoples lives. And I was curious, you know, if those experiences for you also changed a little bit of the way you, you think about, you know, community, clients, leadership, if it also informs your viewing that way. Yeah, I think absolutely. Like I grew up in Toronto, so you know, I you know, my school is very was pretty diverse for its time period. Well, I say pretty diverse. I was still like one of two Asian people in the school or maybe 3, maybe there were three of us. Anyway, I found though, when I like Toronto was a weird kind of place. It's a little bit insular. We really didn't have exposure to things like indigenous communities growing up. And I So what I initially went away to school at West, it was kind of like a big shock to the system as to like all of these, all of these things that were kind of told or, or sort of espoused within the like Toronto cultural atmosphere that just we're just not at all true about, you know, like all kinds of terrible. What's the word piece that people would say about Indigenous people and none of them are true. So I really had the opportunity to meet with other people and, and kind of grow from those experiences. But as well, like lives in the UK, like, again, it's, you know, it's a completely different space. People interact differently. They had the care about different things. You kind of have to learn to navigate this whole new system, understanding people. I had one for Kessler in law school and he was Scottish. And it was my first encounter with a Scottish person. And I could not understand him at all for like the first three months of our course that at one point as well, I was like one of the only the students there that had a computer. And at one point he was like, are you watching a TV in my class? And I was like, no, this was, you know, like I also, can I copy this? I did my law degree like several years before my calls to the bar because of the caring for my grandmother and all that stuff. So there was a big gap. But so, so this was in a time period when it wasn't as common for students all have their laptops, like outing class. And there were maybe two of us in the class who had laptops. And so he, you know, very rightfully called me out. Like, are you paying attention to my class? And I at this point, like it took me a little while to sort of figure out what he was saying. And I didn't really get, was able to get a response to him. But, you know, just like those kinds of things. I learned so much from that professor though as well. And his wife, they were both fabulous, fabulous teachers. And I feel like there was a twofold effect. So when I studied in the UK, I found that like, I've always been a pretty good student. But when I got to the UK, like I learned how to be like an amazing student. So, you know, I learned how to find my voice in school. I was always very shy and never really spoke out that much, but I was by myself in the UK, like I had to adapt very quickly. I had to make friends new, like, I, you know, previously had been the third child and everybody knew who I was like, oh, you're the sibling of blah, blah, blah. So you must be like them. And so it kind of gave me a chance to come out of my shell a little bit and develop and figure out, you know, who I wanted to be, what kind of person I wanted to be, what kind of people I wanted to engage with. My, I also got to see like instances of racism. Oh my gosh, I was, I, I went to school in Sheffield in the UK and man, did I get a lot of races in my way for all kinds of things. We are called all kinds of terrible names because I was not as white as many of the people around, but it was not like weirdly. So that level racism was interesting. It was more like, that's curious that this is happening in this place, whereas I find when I encounter similar things, you know, in Canada or from my own communities, and that's where it really gets under your skin and really sticks with you for a long time. And so sometimes when those things happen to my clients, like I know, you know, a lot of lawyers encourage us to be more dispassionate advocates. And I, I do see some merit in that. But I also see merit in in really caring for what your clients is going through and making sure that you are a source that can try and make things a little bit easier for them that makes any. Sense, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for that. I see here too that before building your own practice, you had quite a few different work experiences in charities, in financial institutions, in small businesses. So I'm always curious to know, you know, if those experiences and, and how those experiences made you become the person you are today and really the lawyer you you strive to be. Yeah, I think, I think that's definitely they, they had an impact. Like I, I feel like our earlier rules really do shape how we practice, like avidly encourage people to and young students when I meet them to not go straight into law to try and figure out, you know what, who you are without coming into our professional, which is very strongly like you are a lawyer, like this is who you are, this is what you must do. This is your identity. You know, one thing that I learned also in the UK is that law is, it's not our identity, it's just, it's our job, it's our career. Sure. But like you, we are all so much more than that. So we need to kind of embrace that. And what I think with a lot of the work that I did before and a lot of those roles kind of told me that, you know, law, it's not a silo, it is an ecosystem. We are just like one piece and a bigger puzzle and we have to figure out how we work well with those other people and puzzle pieces. What are other small businesses looking for? What are the people you encounter? How do you serve clients on a sort of a, a more, a closer basis where you're not funneling them through a number of different people before they actually get to the person or thing that they need? And then the bigger business is, well, I mean, like financial institutions, I worked in compliance. So that was really helpful because I did get a lot of very good understanding of risk metrics and how the financial and business world looks at risk and financial crimes. And I think as you may be aware, as your listeners are probably aware, lawyers have increasing obligations within these global financial crime reporting. And, and I think that is really important. I found that what it really called me is that I wanted to get back to people and that's why I left the banks. I really wanted to deal. I really wanted to have those conversations with like science. I wanted to hear what was going on in their lives and see if there was a way that I can help them. And I, I try to now take clients that I actually like that I want to work with and that I want to spend time with. I think that's really important for all of us because we do spend so much time at work. But yeah, I mean, sometimes I feel like it would be great to just have another job. You know, there's your law job and then there's like you're fun job or another some other way. You can just be that contributor if you have extra something to contribute. And maybe that's why I have gotten myself in broiled and all the volunteer organizations because I I think there is there's so much that feeds are all an individual souls and sometimes it is really hard to find that and it does change. And so having something else that you can focus on, whether it's, you know, your second job or your, your dream job and your law job and your family, of course, it just gives you that little extra push to do better in, in all of the sort of realms of your. Amazing. I found it interesting that that you had these connections with the financial world and mentioned the questions and reporting and all of that. And with all of that in mind, I'm sure that the population that you serve as well, at least from what we hear out there are unfortunately victims of of many kinds of financial crimes as well. But I'd love to hear a little more, you know, you just said about, you know, the, the volunteer work you're involved in. I know you're mentoring many organizations, mostly towards internationally trained lawyers and, and I'm curious to hear a little bit about that. I know there's a big conference coming up in Toronto as well, but tell me, tell me more about, you know, this experience with mentorship, with volunteering at the big conference and, and even, you know, what do you, what would you wish that younger lawyers understand about building this career? That is a big question. Well, you know, I think younger lawyers need to sort of understand themselves to begin with. I feel like that is a key factor. Like when I first started, I, you know, I went, I had a bunch of mentors. I didn't really know what to do with that when I first started out. Like I didn't like there are these guys and they kind of tell you, but like, if you aren't really sure about yourself, where are your directions or where you want to be. And I thought I knew, I didn't think that I knew where I wanted to be, but where I thought I wanted to be with an environmental lawyer or possibly construction lawyer. And I am a very far removed thing from those, those two items at the moment. So we know, we never really know. And I feel like there's, you know, underlying wants and needs for all of us that if you don't really take time to just sit with yourself and consider that you'll, you'll never be able to express them to someone else in a way that we kind of need to when we're dealing with a mentor. Because the, the fact is, is that the mentees have to drive that ship. Your mentors are really, really busy. They may not be able to give all the time that they want to give to you. And you need to be the ones who are telling that you need to tell your mentor, like, what is it that you want from them? And ideally, if you could book the appointments, that would be great or, or you know, at least kind of start driving the ship in, in that way a little bit. I, I think it's really important for all of us to have a lot of different mentors and mentees. Like we are never going to be in a place where we know everything and we don't need to be mentored. This does not reality. I mean, maybe when you retire, but I mean, even then, I feel like some retirees would go on to have second careers and do all kinds of crazy things. So they probably also still need vendors. And I think it's really hard when you don't feel like you fit anywhere. I think with ITL especially, you get that. I actually got a message from 1:00 today that was asking me how to sort of navigate the challenges that they're going to face through this process. And I, you know, I'm not really sure how to answer because I, I kind of needed one, I need more information. But two, on the face of things, it looks like they're navigating those challenges pretty well so far. And it's just kind of a good reminder too, that, you know, we, we might think that everyone has it all together and that everybody, everything is fine, but we have no idea what's going on with anybody underneath. And, you know, we, we just have to kind of remember who there are people that we're dealing with and that they have all these layers to them that we're just not Privy to. And I think when you're mentoring, having being able to feel on the outside of all these things kind of helps you to spot what's needed, like as a mentor. But unless that like the student is giving us or the mentee is giving us that a little bit like, you know, there's a push and pull here. And also like you can teach your mentee things for your mentor, things like, and most mentors, if they're actually really in it like they are, they want to learn from you too. They want to learn about you. Don't make them talk all the time. They want to hear from you. That's amazing. If I may ask you, can you tell us a little bit about the ITL conference that will happen in Toronto? Yeah, yeah. So for hurdles through horizons, the evolving ITL landscape. So this conference is the second of its kind in Canada. It is the first one that happening in Toronto. And it's pretty exciting because Toronto is an Ontario is really in my opinion at least the hub of where most of the IC L's in Canada happen to land, at least at the first instance because apparently our licensing process is easier. But also it just generally like folks come to Ontario and and there's a lot of ITIL here and there's a lot of older ITL's here as well who kind of hide a little bit more in the shadows. You know, you don't necessarily know who they are unless they tell you that they are IRL. But the conference itself is, is kind of like our transformative approach to bringing together like the vast diversity that is the IL community, the international Chandler community in Canada. And you know, we have a full day of programming that's intended to speak to issues that are really important for everyone in the profession, but in particular hit ITL's a little bit differently. So, you know, what does diversity mean? You know, in context with the ITL community like we are all coming and again, like there's, you know. There are so many people from so many different countries with so many different cultural norms that they're bringing in trying to fit into the Canadian landscape and trying to integrate with their peers and bosses and clients. And it's very difficult. So I wanted to sort of tackle that kind of head on. And then we also have amazing panel on the rule of law that I'm very much looking forward to because again, you know, our, our, our world is fracturing. There's no other way to say it. And I also have really, I think unique insights into this because we are coming from different places. We are coming from different places with different political norms and very different possibly views of what it means to adhere to the rule of law. And so you want to have those conversations and also, you know, a mental health because again, these are things that I think do get talked about in law, at least more recently, but they are not ever. I've never seen them addressed in the ITL context. And then of course, we will have some other amazing programs on, you know, networking and AI and, you know, all your typical lawyer programs. But I think like those, there are 300 programs throughout the day are, are the real like cornerstone of, you know, what it means to find your place and to not only find your place, but build from it. And, you know, make a community that is integrated within the broader Canadian legal community where we're, we're no longer just, you know, people being pulled along on the sidelines, But we are the leaders. We are the people who are shaping the system, who are informing perspectives and policies because we have that experience. And not me necessarily in particular, but a lot of the ITL's absolutely do that. You know, the weird thing about being an ITL is like you, you come into Canada and you're told, well, you have to start at the bottom. Maybe you have to go become a law clerk. I mean, how many of us have been told they'll be a lock clerk? Not saying that locks don't do a great job. They do and they're really important. And so our paralegals, but that's not the right approach to tell the internationally trained lawyers coming in that they should go and be a paralegal or a loser unless it's unless it's actually what they want, but usually it's not. So, you know, I think it's really important to highlight the bias, highlight the the disparities and try and find a way to rise above both personally and professionally. Choose since you had this opportunity to navigate the internationally trained process for for a while now and have been following and helping so many people along this journey, I wanted to ask you what are some of the things that you're seeing progress on? What are a few of the things that maybe you weren't concerns when you did the process, but now you know people will bring up? Are there a couple of points that you notice, you know, repeating themselves or? I think the worst thing is, is that people still feel like they are being told that they're sucking class to Canadian students. And I think that's really sad. And it's also just so, so demoralizing when someone says that to you. And, and the fact that I'm trying to think how many years has since, I don't even want to say how many years it's been since I started in truth initially. But the fact that it's been so long that that message has been perpetuated is, is something that I think, you know, the law societies need to address and they don't. And I think, you know, last year's Cochrans, the Law Society, several lost societies showed up and they talked about all kinds of things and they were all, oh, yeah, we really are so supportive and we want to make sure everybody succeeds and all this. I don't know that we're actually seeing that development on the ground. I think there is some interesting discussions happening about licensing. I mean, I don't know what's going to come. I don't want to put my own opinions on that right now, but you know, I, I think it's important to have those talks, but those talks really need to include more of the ITL voices. And we're not really seeing that they're not, we're not seeing as separate stakeholders. And I think that's a problem because and, and like, I think it's only the OA apparently has some sort of ITIL consultancy thing happening and the VC BA, well, what DABCO BA version, whatever they called, whatever they're called out there, they have an ITS section, but they are the only province with an ITL section. That's part of the CBA. And while I am no longer a member of the Oba or the CBA, I, I do recognize that they have quite a lot of influence and sway. And I think some of these organizations really need to get on board and provide that kind of recognition to the ITL community in order to help the law societies and other sort of leadership type enterprises move the dial a little bit forward. Because it can't all just be like grassroots wait, like it can't all just be, well, there's now so many of us now what do we do with them? I don't know. Does that answer your? Question No, absolutely, absolutely did. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for for sharing your thoughts. I wanted to tap in a little bit in your, in your practice before we run out of time here. And I know that you host some seniors ask me anything sessions. So why don't you ask you about that? You know, what are some of the, the most common worries that you hear from older adults? What what they bring usually? What lawyers in general should keep in mind when they are serving this group? Oh, I think I'll start with that last bit. I think lawyers need to keep in mind that these are still real full human beings with autonomy for the most part. They have. They know what they want. Like nobody knows what they want as much as an older person knows what they want. No one can handle themselves as much as an older person. And yet we assume that they are not capable most of the time or that we, we just assume that they're saying, Oh, well, that's just the thing that that old man over there is saying, you know, like the, the tropes about the old man yelling at the kids off of salon. We, you know, we have to give them a little bit more time. We need to understand that, that when we dismiss them like it's, it's like a wholesale dismissal. I think, you know, in terms of their worries, a lot of older adults are, they aren't sure what comes next. They feel like they, they, I think they're most concerned. What's been raised to me is that when they go see lawyers, they are never, they don't get listened to. And often the lawyers will just, they'll say what they want and lawyers won't even ask them questions. They'll just provide them with a document and expect that they'll just sign it or if they're with their, you know, loved one, like a say a child of theirs or something, that they're constantly the lawyers constantly going to defer to this person rather than talking to them. And I think it's kind of worth thinking about and sort of like when we are dealing with the translator, right? Like the translator is there, but they're not the client. The client is the client. So you need to be talking to the clients and not the translator. And the translator is just like the voice box, same thing their family members, just the voice box. But that older adults is the one that you need to focus on and engage with. No prioritizing risk facts for that person, no matter what their capabilities are, because their dignity doesn't decrease just because their capacity does. Using plain language and listening, active listening key. I think, you know, one thing is that seniors often gets they become outsiders as they age, but like we need to make sure that our systems and that the way we practice that we design them with, you know, their needs in mind as well. And there is a misconception that seniors are not technologically forward. And I think there are some who are who certainly struggle. But I do, although just want to point out that I have a load of clients who are very, very good with technology and sometimes it's my younger ones who just are not good. I met maneuvering. I wanted to ask you, you know, you're humbling so many responsibilities, from family responsibilities to your practice, your volunteer work, and you also like really spoke as you know, being grounded, knowing who you are and the kind of lawyer you are and, and 1st we want to be. I want to ask you, you know, what kind of advice would you give to younger lawyers who are trying to find them both their space and the profession, but also that maybe skins have foam is seen it. I don't know. It took me a really long time. It took me like 40 years to get you. So it's, so it's definitely a work in progress and it's it's still ongoing. I would say therapy helps, you know, all of the things like for my husband, especially kids really helped. For me, it was more like, now I'm a mom, what do I do with that? No longer. But I, I think like therapy helps, exercise helps spending time in nature if you can. Like we used to go before she was blown. She's not quite ready for now, but we used to go for long walks with our old one through various like hiking areas that we have a jar, a little glitter jar that is filled with different hiking spots all over Ontario. And we would pull one out every weekend and, and go for like a long hike. Just exploring those types of things really, really help. No, now things like playing with the kids helps. Just seeing them, seeing them engaged to with their grandparents is really special. And I'm really thrilled that for my kids, at least they had access to, they have access to all four grandparents. Listen for me, I had my two who were here kind of maybe sharing and my grandmother in the Philippines, But I, I never met my grandfather who was a lawyer as well. And I think my mom never told me that until I became a lawyer myself. And it always just kind of stuck with me after that. And he was the kind of lawyer who was also practicing in A to J practice. And it's just kind of like full circle, you know, and kind of reminding yourself of who you are within your family and within you yourself is helpful. Great advice. It was great to learn a little bit more about your story as well. So I wanted to say that I really appreciate you Minion podcast here today. Thank you for for making the time to be here and to Share your story. Thank you so much for having me, Claudia. I hope it's a good one. Absolutely, absolutely. It's a good one for sure. And thank you all for tuning in and listening to today's episode.