Business Strategy, Legal Operations and Career Growth with Bianca Thomas

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. This evening I have the opportunity to host Bianca Thomas. She has an incredible career. She is currently senior counsel in the technology and operations area at BMO. She has had so many incredible roles, you know, all the way from supporting Shopify's financial solution to supporting the precious and base metal businesses of BMO. She has gained litigation experience as well as A at a boutique litigation firm. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Tonight, Thank you so much Claudio, for having me. It's a pleasure. Start off our podcast. Even though I said very little about you, I'd I'd love for you to introduce yourself into our listeners about who you are and what you do. Today, Absolutely. Well, before we dive in, I'll just say that my comments are my own and not the views of my employer. And as you mentioned, I'm currently a Senior counsel at BMO in a role supporting technology and operations. I actually just transitioned into this role within the last month and I'm working on a few different buckets of work, Technology and procurement agreements being one and marketing and social media being the other. And before that I LED our external counsel program and have the opportunity to manage a team of legal operations professionals and earlier worked in a transactional role in capital markets legal at BMO, primarily supporting the precious and base metals businesses as well as equity derivatives and other derivatives transactions. And you also mentioned I have worked in financial services partnerships at Shopify and I actually started my career as a litigator in private practice at a few boutique law firms first and commercial litigation and then later in insurance and professional negligence. So I've I've gained experience in a couple of diverse areas and and tried to build on all of those experiences. Thank you for sharing that. Since you tapped on that on that point of beginning your occurring litigation and then later moving on to Rose in house and I guess in a way transactional work. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that transition and maybe even how did that early litigation experience has shaped the lawyer you. Are now, they're really good questions and I love this question because I meet with younger lawyers and law students frequently and many of them are looking for career advice or looking to network. And I find some of them are also looking to transition across practice areas, whether it's corporate to litigation, litigation to corporate or whatever the case may be. And so this question does come up pretty often for me when I'm having those conversations. And So what I thought about making the switch from litigation to an in house transactional practice, on the face of it, of course, they're quite different in terms of the day-to-day substance of what you're doing. But I thought about the transferability of skills when moving in house. And in particular as a litigator, you really hone your oral and written communication skills. You're drafting skills have to be excellent and your negotiation skills consistently are honed with the latter being particularly relevant for transactions because when you think about it and step back and litigation, it's an adversarial process. You usually have a winner and a loser. And in many cases you're settling, not many cases go to trial, especially in Toronto, because of how expensive it is to go to trial and how time consuming it can be. So clients are often looking for more cost effective, timely ways to resolve their disputes. Compare that to when you're working on a deal and in a transaction setting, it's generally more of a collaborative process as ultimately both sides want to see the deal get completed, but they're each looking for terms that are preferable to that. And so the negotiation skills you develop as a litigator are really useful in a transactional practice. So I really found that when I first made the switch. And then I spent a lot of time thinking about this, how did those early years shape me now? And I really think that the on your feet experience that you get in court shaped me to really think quickly on my feet. I remember both an articling and then the first four years of practice going to court consistently. Because the great thing about working at boutiques when you're in litigation is that you're, you're constantly in court. And in addition to that, I think it really helped with staying calm under pressure and organizing facts into clear recommendations. I think it really helps frame the way you think and organize things. And so it's definitely a good base to have and and use those skills in different ways. So that's amazing. Thank you for sharing that considering the this background you gave us right now, I also see that you worked with a very interesting variety of work inside the transactional part out. So after the litigation, I guess in a way, we we put lawyers in two big boxes, right in action work. But you've worked across capital markets, Seattle S technology and operations. So I'm also curious, you know, especially considering our audience and and considering that most of us listening here are young lawyers or early career professionals. Sometimes it's hard to think about how do you build the confidence to move across, you know, different practice areas, even within transactional work. So I got a little bit about, you know, what motivated you and and how did you build the confidence to do that? Yeah, When I'm thinking about this, I think the biggest leap is, you know what we've been talking about the the switch from litigation to that transactional piece, because it was very different from what I was used to. And I think what made it doable, I think it was less about confidence, but I think it was really about the curiosity for learning and being excited about picking up a different area and expanding your skill set. Also, I really benefited from a fantastic manager and team who really supported me. And I find that if you approach things with a curiosity for learning and asking questions and trying to keep yourself engaged, that really helps support your growth and picking up some of these different areas. And so I think a genuine interest and desire to learn is is really helpful. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that in in your roles, both at demo Shopify, you worked very closely with business teams from my understanding. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about that. It's it's been very fascinating to interviewing house lawyers. It has a little more about, you know, what does it mean to be a strong business partner? What does that mean? You know, for your practice as an in house lawyer? That's a, that's a good question as well. And so I think when you're thinking about private practice lawyers and in-house lawyers and how they can differ when you're in private practices, you know, you can have so many clients, but when you're in house at an organization, you have one client really, and you get to know so well the organization, it's risk appetite, it's goals and ambitions and everything that it's looking to achieve. And so you really get that in depth understanding. And so for me, when thinking about how to be a strong business partner, what I've tried to do, part of it is really about understanding the business context, what the team is trying to achieve, how their products work, what the organization risk appetite is. So your advice is actually usable to them instead of perhaps a summary of regulations or statutes. That's one of the things I love about being in house that places like FEMO is you're close enough to the business and the work to give advice that fits their strategy and not just the law and the abstract. And you're really thinking about what they're trying to do and whether you can do it. And so I think in practice, it starts with practicality as well. You don't need a long memo. Business people want the headline. Here's the issue, here are your options, here's the risk trade off, and here's what I recommend. So you're still informing them they know everything that they should know, but you're also being efficient with everyone's time and practical. I also really think an important piece is investing in the relationship with the business, learning how they like to communicate. Some folks, for example, they like if you just pick up the call and on an impromptu basis and shoot them your questions quickly. Others like video calls scheduled, others like chats on Teams. And so getting to know those people, being responsive and showing that you genuinely want their work to succeed, I think helps build that trust with those business folks. And so then when you have issues that come up that are complicated, like regulatory issues where perhaps they're there's challenges to doing what the business is looking to do, having that trust and relationship in place really matters. Because if you've built that credibility with them and you can come with that lens of how can we try to do this mindset instead of essentially being the department of no, which I think legal sometimes is branded with. Ultimately, in some cases they may not love the answer, but they'll understand and respect the advice and continue to engage with you. Amazing. Thank you for sharing those. I'm also curious here. I know you've developed a really big network, you know, with, with the OVA, with the incredible career you've built. But I'm also very interested about your experience leading the Bmo's external counsel program that I'd love to hear a little more about. You know what that role taught. You. So I learned so much in that role. Leading that program also involved managing a team of 6 legal operations professionals. And coming from my experience, which was just in legal practice moving to that role, that role is really so focused on operations. It was fascinating to see all of the work that happens behind the scenes for a program like that to run. And so I remember when I was on the other side of it, years passed as a lawyer in Capital Markets Legal, My only interaction with our external council program team was when I had billing questions on matters with external counsel. And so I really thought that was the main extent of what that team covered and worked on. And boy was I wrong when when I joined a couple of years ago into that role. That's really just scratching the surface. They do so much more than that, both on a day-to-day basis in terms of process and governance from a supplier risk management perspective, but also on a broader scale when thinking about technical projects and strategic projects and relationship management. Honestly, it was a really great experience and I think those operational skills are a great skill set and experience to obtain. I think the other thing for me that it really confirmed was that I really enjoyed the people management piece. I think it is a big privilege to be able to support someone's growth and I took that responsibility seriously with coaching and setting clear goals for the team and really trying to create an environment where the team could do their best work. And I really do appreciate the bank giving me that opportunity because it was great. That's amazing. I didn't know the extent that legal operations would be involved in all of that. So that was quite nice speaking about, you know, your career and and all that you've done. I also saw that you were recognized as a Lexpert Rising star. So looking back, I'd love to hear a little bit about what habits or decisions did you think that make the biggest difference in your career? Growth. Well, first I would say I was genuinely humbled by that recognition. And I think nothing like that really happens in a vacuum. I, I was really lucky to have fantastic managers and mentors and people who trusted me to work on really meaningful, interesting work. And in, in looking back and thinking about habits that have maybe just made a difference in my career so far. I think there were a few, One of them we've touched on a bit and is that staying genuinely curious in terms of learning. But I think it's also being willing to step into new areas and say yes to opportunities. Saying yes to things I think is, is great to do because it gives you skills and experiences that you may not have otherwise had. And I think another is being focused on building trust within the organization, being responsive, clear, so both business partners, but not just also stakeholders within legal and other stakeholders that you work with feel like you're helping to move things forward and that you're a reliable partner. And then I think community involvement has also been a big part of my career as well through the Oba and now the Schleifer Clinic. I found that to be very meaningful because it's allowed me to build leadership skills throughout the years, and it's also connected me to various people who shape how I think about the profession, which has been fantastic experience. Amazing. And just to get right into that, you just mentioned the OA or your community work. I wouldn't you ask you a little more about that. You did you start getting involved as soon as you were in law school where there are a few friends that introduced you to the organization and even like how has given back shaped your career and and maybe even your sense of purpose as a lawyer? So I would say since high school, I've been involved in various initiatives and I've always found community engagement and giving back to be something that's really important and help me stay connected to purpose. But I think really for me, it started when I was a second year lawyer to be more sustained. I've really tried to align myself with causes and organizations that I'm really passionate about, that I'm interested in, that align with my values, especially women's initiatives, if you can, if you can tell from what I've been involved in so far. So I started as a second year lawyer joining the OB, a women lawyers forum executive. Someone had asked if I was interested in running for the executive and I think I started as the public affairs liaison and I stayed on that executive for five years, ultimately chairing it in 2019 and that just lit a fire within me. It was such a wonderful group of women with shared values and the executive was really there to support the sections goals of promoting the advancement of women influence and their success in the legal profession through various things like CPD did it, advocacy events and it was it was fantastic. Following that experience, I really wanted to continue the momentum and add the great opportunity to get involved with the Schleifer Clinic, starting out first with the fundraising committee and then ultimately acting as a board member the last couple of years. And Claudio, I'm not sure if you know the story of the the Schleifer Clinic, but I'd love to share with your listeners if they're not aware. Absolutely. So I, I know a little bit about the sad story of Slifer, but I don't know exactly how the clinic started. So if you could share that, that would be. Great. I would love to. As you mentioned, it really is a sad story. The clinic was founded in memory of Barbara Tina Schleifer, who was assaulted and murdered in 1980 on her way home from a call to the bar ceremony. And out of that tragedy, five years after that, her friends in her classmates founded the clinic in her honor to do the kind of work that Barbara Schleifer was going to do had she survived. And this past year, we celebrated the 40th year of the clinic. And if you can believe it, since 1985, the clinic has supported over 150 thousand women and gender diverse survivors of violence through direct services and the kissy efforts, legal reform missions and programs. Honestly, I have felt immensely inspired by the staff and my fellow board members. I look forward to every board meeting. It's it's fantastic. The clinic does such meaningful an amazing work. So honestly, it's been a career highlight for me to be able to support them. And if I can share just a plug for the clinics upcoming event in case anyone is interested in learning more about the clinic, we have an event called She Matters coming up on Sunday, March 29th. It's really fun. It's a brunch event that we've held for the last few years and it supports the clinics fundraising. There's food. It's it's just a really fun time. And it's it's also great because it raises awareness and each year we're getting more and more people. And so I encourage anyone who's interested in learning more about the clinic or supporting to please get tickets online or feel free to reach out to me and I'll send you to the page for tickets. But it's a, it's a great time. And so I've really appreciated what being involved in some of these organizations can give. And I think you really get out of it what you put into it. And so it's been a really great experience for me. And I, if any lawyers that are younger or law students that are thinking about where should I get involved? I would honestly think about what are the areas you're really interested in because everyone's got something different. What are you passionate about? And then find an organization that caters to that because it'll just be so meaningful to you if you're genuinely really interested in in what you're spending your time on. I appreciate you taking the time to, to there a little bit of what the clinic does. And she raised awareness of, of the cause. I think it's a it's one that we definitely need to, to pay attention to. So I'm, I'm so happy that we have this, you know, a little bit of the influence that I can have that maybe more people will, will learn about it and, and hopefully, you know, being involved. So thank you for for sharing. That I really appreciate the opportunity to speak a bit about the clinic because they just do such fantastic. Work amazing. Well, to to finish our episode today, I wanted to ask if you were to give you your younger self a piece of advice or, you know, thinking about early career professionals nowadays. There's there's so much to be excited about. There's so much to be scared about. I often find it interesting that so many of the lawyers that came to the podcast, they mentioned something along the lines of, well, I I hear law students nowadays saying the market is really bad. There is this crisis going on with different factors, geopolitical, whatever it is, and it's funny because the year they graduated, there was something along those lines as well. So I found it very interesting that there is always, you know, something should be excited about something should be concerned about AI. I mean 1000 things. One is you ask you, you know, if you were to give a young lawyer, early cure professional, some kind of advice, what would you? What would you share? I think the one piece of advice I would give is never to let anyone tell you what you are capable of. And the reason I say that is because, as I mentioned, I often meet with law students or young lawyers who are either just starting out or looking to transition to a different area or they're looking to break into the Canadian legal market. Maybe if they're foreign trained lawyers and they're trying to get Canadian experience. And they'll share with me that they've met with a bunch of other lawyers for coffees or career advice. And a number of them will tell them that whatever they're looking to do, be it transition or get Canadian legal experience is just going to be very hard or not achievable. And you can see sometimes the look of demoralization on their face. And it, you know, for me, I feel really badly for, for folks because I think a 20 or 30 minute coffee is not enough time at all to be able to tell what someone's going to be able to achieve what they're capable of. And honestly, I don't think any of these lawyers have bad intentions. I just think as sometimes as a byproduct of how we're trained to think as lawyers, we can have a more risk adverse approach and viewpoint. And then those beliefs come through when you're sharing advice with other people, it makes sense. But sometimes it leaves those folks that are looking for this advice eagerly feeling like they won't be able to achieve their goals or it'll take a very long time. And so if there's something that people take away from my comments, I really hope it's that you believe in yourself. You know, don't let anyone tell you what you're capable of. And you're a much better judge of that piece of, of information to not doubt yourself. The power of persistence is there. Believe in yourself and don't let other people discourage you. That's the, that's the main take away. And I've, I've told a number of young lawyers that when I meet them for coffee, and I think some of them feel energized and motivated by it. So I, I really hope that if anyone's going through something like that, that they take that away as well. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. I think we couldn't have finished our conversation on a higher note. Thank you. Thank you, Claudio.