Global Pathways in Legal Education with Adriana Aguena

Welcome to studying law Around the world. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. So many of the guests on this podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction for the first time, Grammatica International can help. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching designed just for legal professionals. I have. Worked with so many lawyers like you who are exceptionally smart, qualified and capable but need a bit of guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five countries during my 17 years in law and education. Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills generally, refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn more. Today I have the opportunity to speak with Adriana Guerra, who is a leader and a very influential personality in the LM world. In the US, she is the assistant director at Mcgeorge School of Law. She supports the LLM SJD. In exchange, students from around the world helping them should advocate their academic and professional journeys into US. She's a Mac George alum, She's also a Brazilian trained lawyer, and she brings deep knowledge, care in a global perspective to everything she does. Today. I wanted to really thank you so much for being here with us today, Adriana. Thank you for having me sharing my story not only as the Assistant Director, Michael School of Law with International programs, but also a a view or share my experience as a former LLM student at Mcgeorge. So thank you for the invitation. Absolutely. And I wanted you to talk with you today because I saw that Mac George is soon launching a new LM program in the US Law and Policy, and that's going to be an online program. So I wanted to hear all about it. Can you tell our listeners a little bit to start our conversation today? Trading news especially because there is a need, there is a growing need in response to these are now launching the US law and policy reality. Just to give a context of our school Metro School of Law and LLM program specifically. We've been working with the LM for over 30 years and we have had successful with the LM in warm water in environmental law online, which we already have a successful business model. Their business experience that has been working for many international lawyers who are unable to come to the United States to study. So the idea is to provide those lawyers was professionals, legal professionals, because not only for lawyers, but also for scholars, even for exchange program in a way that wants to have that exposure to the US a lot. This would be a very good option to gain the knowledge about U.S. law, the US jurisdiction. We know that we have lawyers from all over the world, even from civil law countries like Brazil and many others that want to learn more about how the common law system works and the US jurisdictions and the court system. So there is a lot of knowledge how they can acquire online, including the the the policies and cross litigation depending on the country they are coming from. And if there is any sort of interaction with the United States, they would be able to access all this information without having to relocate to the United States for a full time or in person class. In other words, you know, this is actually idea for lawyers, lawyers that are also working in government agencies back home. We have had several lawyers that are working for their governments that want to have the access to the US policy and law making in order to better their own system to compare or to have another tool to probably find other options for resolutions of certain legal issues that are coming up. In fact, with technology, intellectual property, there's so much going on in that area of law that is innovating every single day. So having that, that gateway, that ability to learn more about a jurisdiction that is focusing on innovation where we're here in Sacramento, the capital of California. So we are watching very closely how the laws are being made, how the lobbyists are working in order to produce new laws. So that gives not only those lawyers work in government agencies, but also for those who work for non governmental organizations. Again, policy making across the border, law firms at large, international organizations that engage with U.S. law, or another important point here, those who need to interpret the US policies within their jurisdiction. Due to all this globalization, all this cross litigation among these countries with the United States being able to interpret the law to understand how it is applied. Again, black letter law, there's always that Gray area open for interpretation. So we are trying to make sure that those students have access to that bigger conversation to best prepare themselves to represent to their clients, their law firms or even out of curiosity, as far as, you know, negotiations and arbitrations and other ways to solve global legal issues. So it's open to all, especially for those who are busy lawyers, not being able to take a leave of absence, depending on where you work to be here, but also want to acquire the knowledge. So it's the the cost benefit. We'll talk more about it, but it's also cheaper. It's more accessible in a way for those who are unable to have that time or the finances in alignment to be able to be here. But can you still get the the benefits of the knowledge that is needed for their expansion of their careers? Thank you so much for sharing that. And as a former alumni from an LLM program, I wanted to ask you as well if there is a few things that you would point out as unique features or experiences that the LLM Online provides that may be set it apart from the traditional in-person LM. You did mention already the accessibility and access to it, both in the financial term, but also the way that you don't need to worry about relocating and all of that. But I wanted to know what else is there you know for somebody looking for this experience. Why should I do an LLM Online? Great question. And that's the dilemma of the $1 million question, right? So it's all about #1 flexibility #2 customization and those are the 2 main items that meet your career goals. So it's not for everybody. In fact, to be very honest with you, you need to ask yourself, do I enjoy? Is it something that really motivates in being an online class? Because obviously it's a different format than an in person experience. The knowledge is still there. It's the interaction that is really, I would say, challenging for some but appreciated by others. So you needed to number one, check within your ability to stay connected and engaged in the class and online classes. But the important thing is to is #1 understand your needs #2 how can you elevate, maximize the knowledge, the exposure that you're having while you're back home? I'll give you an example, real example that makes it very appealing. Some lawyers or legal professionals that intend to take the California bar, for example, I'm saying California. But please folks do know that depending on your background and desire to also practice law in different states, you may. I'm going to say may because every case is different in needs to be analyzed differently. But you may be able to also sit for the New York bar, for example, which is one of the most competitive California, New York or other jurisdiction another state. So for those who are interested in pursuing that pathway, being able to have the ability to take some of the classes that are tested on the bar exam is a huge advantage. OK, I'll just give you an example. We offer here with the US loan policy contracts. That's one of the subjects that starts on the California bar exam. New York as well. About New York, there is, I'm going to make it here a note that in New York jurisdiction, they do not recognize the online class, which is the distance that distant learning. So I just want to note that and we can explore more if needed. But for those who are thinking about California specifically, contracts, wheels and trust, that's another subject test in the bar exam, business organization, environmental law, not the environmental law, not tested, it's an elective. But just to give you an example of how you can mix, maximize, but also pick and choose those classes that is of your interest. So you have the bar test subjects as well as elective classes that depending on your area of law, you absolutely can customize for the elective classes. Just to give you an example, the flexibility survey of international property. So those who are in the international or intellectual property arena, they can pick and choose the class, those classes that you would benefit them. Evidence is a bar tested class that you can also take online legal English, not a bar tested. However, I'll tell you, I personally took that class many years ago when I did my LLM. It was very foundational class, not only helped me with developing the writing, speaking, but also the legal terminology. So it's a foundational class that we hear over and over, which is a supporting classes for those whose language, whose English you know, any language is not first language is not English. So definitely a support for those in that situation and introduction to legal analysis, learning more about the sources of law and the way the Americans really right their memos and how they communicate in the work environment. So all all this to say that you have the flexibility and the ability to customize the classes, whether they are bar tested or they are electives that will help you to maximize your career, you have the ability to do so. The other benefit is the cost. The cost benefit, since you are taking the online classes, there will be certain fees that will not apply to you. And I'll give an example. So medical insurance, you're not here. You don't need to prove that. And that's a big chunk of money that you save because it's a mandatory fee that the institution requires, some other small fees that the institution would be charging that in person class, it would not be applied for the online class, which means which translates that financially. It would definitely open more doors for those who have some limitation. So in other words, you can choose the classes, you can choose how many semesters you're going to be dedicating. There's not a specific number, minimum or maximum number of the classes. As long as you completed the 24 units, you can spread as long as you comply, of course with other requirements, you are within the successful pathway for the LLM program. So there is flexibility. Of course, you will meet if your academic advisor to discuss class choices, to discuss career approach and how you can maximize those classes to support you to elevate in your career. For those who are really looking forward to utilizing the LLM online to elevate the career to learn more about the law course and the public and policy exposure, including the government law and policy making that there are specific classes that you can take that will help you to build your own knowledge and it will translate really well for the type of work that you're doing. Just some example for you to start thinking about like legislature lawmaking. As I mentioned, we are hearing Sacramento. So we really have full access to how the laws are made in the process of law making and the reason behind it, right? This is the why. Why is this being created? And there is so much learning in that aspect, the executive branch, how this is works here in the United States compared to the, the, the jurisdiction that you're coming from. So comparative law, international law, those are areas of law that you can focus even an online format where you have the exposure to the knowledge as well has the ability to, and we're going to talk more about it about it. But the access to the faculty that is teaching those classes, the knowledge, the networking, it's all there for you. The only difference is that online format. And we'll talk more about how to stay engaged because that's the thing, right? To stay motivated because I promise you'll be intellectually a challenge. It's a challenge. It's a very rigorous program, but it's spaced according to your needs, according to your availability. And this is all discussed prior to the beginning of your classes to make sure that the the transition is, is smooth as possible and to make sure that you are engaged, to make sure that are integrated and to make sure that you belong to Mcgeorge family. Because even with the distance, we are still able, thank God, to this technology to stay connected in so many levels. Absolutely fantastic. And since you, since you mentioned that, let's let's dive into that a little bit. And let me ask you then, how is the university, how is the faculty wanting to ensure that students are shoe connected, that they can sue, you know, meet people, that they can talk with their fellow students in a way that is still meaningful, even with, you know, the, the possible challenges of technology are, are also the advancements and, and with the helpful resources we have now, As for example, we're recording this podcast right now. Unfortunately, I'm not in California as we speak. They're welcome to join us, come and visit. Yeah, so, so I'd like, I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, the, the networking aspect of it and the contact with faculty. Yes, and again, meaningful interaction is key. It's essential that the students feel connected, that they belong, they are part of the family, right? So in order to do that, there have been so many ways to make that interaction meaningful. I'll give you some examples. So we do offer live online sessions not only for the lectures but also for questions and answers, the famous Q&A. Again, it's just so important to be connected and to hear from the faculty that is supporting you throughout your journey. Also live discussions right there will be set a time and a day where there will be a theme or a copy that will be discussed for those who are not available, you know, of course, they can't access the recording later on, but I want to make sure that students carve some time because this is also a priority to be able to see, you know, online your classmates and interaction is definitely a very important. Also regular faculty office hours. Super important to have that one-on-one conversation with your professor to maximize the relationship, to learn from the experts in the area, to feel comfortable to you ask her question and also build that connection. Remember, networking is key for so many things, right? And even talking to a faculty, there's so much value in there, not only for the career spec, but also, you know, a letter of recommendation in the future, right? You, you really maximize that relationship. I think it's important to also build on that. We also offer the peer-to-peer breakout rooms. So you also can work and shouldn't be working with your classmates to establish that bond and also to share. We learn so much about sharing by listening and by also sharing our explanations, especially because imagine lawyers, professional legal professionals all over the world together sharing how certain things are resolved in their home countries. So you learn so much from others because it's all depending on the the culture or their religion or the source of law, the common law or combination of both. So there's so many layers that you can't really teach unless you are exposed to that type of audience. We also have online discussion boards. There's always that interaction with other students and also to hear and to see how they think, how they solve problems, which is again, a learning opportunity for us curious litigators, professionals that were thinking, trying to think outside the box and being creative, utilizing solutions that you may have not thought about. And you know, it may not be common in your country on your area of law. And all students will be participating and they're eligible to participate in these student network events, online events, it in person. If you have the ability to come and visit, to come and participate on the events, please do so. We'll be no more than half to welcome you and provide you all the information necessary to provide you with that experience in person as well. And lastly, but not least important, students are eligible or invited to all lectures, workshops, events, panels that the law school offers to all students. Whether you are in person, whether you're online, you have access to those events. So we'll be sharing with you. And then you of course can schedule accordingly to your availability, but you do have access to those those events. Incredible. Sounds like a lot of effort has been made to make sure that everybody is included and they don't miss out on all of that. But it also sounds like you can still have a career while you do it. So I find that very, very interesting. And I, I got curious here too, you know, for international students who are I believe are the main public for these LM who have never studied in the US or are not very familiar with it, how does this align format also help them to adjust to learning about this system? Great question. I love it because let's be honest, it's challenge, right? You're you don't have that one-on-one personal contact. But we have specifically designed, we put a lot of thought and love into this to design an international student orientation that include modules on the structure of the United States, the judicial system, how to brief and read a case, what to expect in the classroom. In other words, there are specific times where during the orientation, we're going to be addressing those #1 questions that students have coming from different jurisdictions, but also what type of support that we can provide during the online journey. O another example, and I mentioned earlier about the legal English class, which I'm a big fan of because again, gives us international professionals the ability to improve our English and the writing and speaking and the way we think, the way we write, the way they are here in the United States, communicate with very different from Brazil, I'll tell you in terms of the style of writing. So it's a very fun class, I think. But this is, you know, it's a, it's a support students to be present, to be comfortable in their first class, even if English is not their first language, you know, so you're going to be improving the speaking, the legal terminology and feel confident to communicate. Our faculty is used to teaching international students. They are very aware of the needs of the international audience and they are ready to provide context clarification. Remember, we are all coming from different jurisdictions are countries. We have different accents, we bring in different background, which makes the LLM program online very rich because let's be honest, where else in the world you can meet with professionals from all over the world with the whole different background and experience that can be shared with you in an ice cream. It's very unique in that sense that you don't have to leave your home for many reasons, but you still have the knowledge and exposure that you need in order to grow in your career and not only professionally, but also personally. They exposure. You know, when we say we travel, we have an experience, we are really trying to translate this experience, even if it's online, even if there's not the that personal touch. It's possible, of course, with a lot of willingness of the student to participate, to be engaged, you know, and a lot of use of the our technology and the ability to offer many options for the students to participate. We think they're busy schedules. That's why you have a synchronous classes that it can be accessed at anytime anywhere in the world and you have a synchronous classes. That's when there is a time and a place right on online, on zoo, a time that you're going to be meeting with those professors as well as with your classmates. So just to give you another example here of the way that we interact with our students to make sure they experience is as real as possible. I'll give you an example during the class in person, also online, the professors usually have hypos. What if this, what if that? In that case, if you're discussing, discussing a case law and there are different jurisdictions, your professor will definitely call on you. In other words, they will ask you to Give your opinion about the case or share the facts, whether you agree or not with the decision of the judge. And in that, there's so much learning because you are improvising. You are allowing yourself to defend your client. If that's the case, to have that ability to create the confidence to share your thoughts, to share how you are thinking about resolving that specific case. Also, for those that are in the comparative law and learning more about civil law, the common law system, it's very interesting to hear from others, including their rationale about how different jurisdictions would solve certain litigation or certain legal issues because of the way we approach the law, the source of law, where is it coming from and why in the past they have decided like this or like that. You know, you will definitely improve. You will be engaged, you will be intellectually stimulated to contribute, your expect to contribute, in other words, to interact and really speak up your mind. And the more examples, the more you bring into the classroom, the more everybody rings specific, specifically the one who is talking because you know, you can only teach someone if you really know what this, you know what the knowledge that you're trying to share with others. So everybody wins. And it's, as I said, it will become a family and online, a virtual family, but a family that is going to support each other throughout this journey. Fantastic. So we've covered how the course is going to be relayed, how everybody gets access to the faculty. We covered how networking and interacting with your colleagues will work. We also talked about how you know you're you're able to adjust to learn the US system even if it's your first experience out of country or first experience in the US specifically. And now I'm also curious about careers. I know that people do Williams for a different reason and of course US credentials shoe holds a lot of value in the world. So I wanted to hear a little more about, you know, are there some kinds of career supports as well that will be available to those online LLM students? Super important piece because let's be honest, you have all this knowledge you need and want the return on your investment, right? And one way not only to maximize your career is to have the support of our career service office, which is our CSO. They provide one-on-one virtual advising to our students, resume and cover letter reviews and LinkedIn profile, assistant assistance and interviewing, coaching. And let me say from a former student perspective, these are so important skills because again, coming from a different country, a different, you know, crucial system, you really don't know. How would you know, right, How they do business or international business. So just to give you an example, if you were to be interviewed by an American law firm, even if you're working online, there are certain standards that they are expecting, even including the resume. Usually it's one page, sometimes 2 pages versus a curriculum vitae which you could have more, more pages or more explanation of the projects that you have worked, the things that you have done and accomplished. So small things that really make the difference to be in accordance with the standard, the practice of standard that is expected from a legal professional, global legal professional. So those type of assistance is much, much appreciated. Virtual alumni networking access. Again, connection, even if it's a known online introduction to a certain person, a certain profession that you are interested in connecting, they are here to support. Our office is here to make that breach between you and the people that you want to connect. In other words, you have folks access to all the services that are offered to in person students and anything that you need, including I have to say, we offer our Wellness services for our students because throughout this journey, it's a challenging journey. It's a great journey, but it's also very challenging intellectually and mentally, you know, and, and it has sometimes those, those challenges, especially for those professionals who are balancing or work life, a professional life, right, a personal life, family. So you know that you also have the assistance of dedicated trained professions to support you on your journey. In other words, you can schedule a counseling appointment to talk to someone if you're going through some challenges or just need someone to hear about what it is going on with you mental health super important. They will remind you of yourself care again, you spend so much time in front of you know the monitor while you're working and then you have your online classes in the evening or no weekends. You want to make sure that you are enjoying your journey that you are healthy mentally, physically. There will be also other alternatives events where you can participate as well in terms of orientations and physical activities you you you can do online as well. But just to summarize, not only your career which you have full access, but also other academic and counseling to make sure that the Wellness is being in check and as well as you are enjoying the program overall. Fantastic. And moving forward here, I think I'll probably have one or two more questions here to finish this podcast today, but I wanted to ask about chicken specific points here. So I was wondering if there is any new resources or technology tools that make George will be using to deliver this program? Yes, yes, knowledge is evolving day by day, as you all know, and we're keeping our eye open to make sure that we are up to date. We are also thinking about new technology being implemented in the very near future to facilitate access to classes on the go. Whether you are driving your car, you know, carefully driving your car, but you're also listening to a lecture to maximize your time. So students have full access to our Canvas, which for example, is our learning management system. In that canvas, you're going to have access to all the videos, all the classes that you have registered for, quizzes that are available for students. It's actually Part 1 of the assignments during their program discussion boards are gonna be available in that platform. All the assignments which are very important to make sure that you have access at all times and any timing, you know, during the day or the night that you have availability for that and of course office hours. So there, there are a lot of features in the canvas that you can utilize to make sure that you are on a schedule that if you need even to, for example, extend a deadline, you have those options and full access to your professors and advisors as well. So there's also a dedicated online student orientation to help new students to learn how to access the systems, how to get ahold of us, how to get a hold of it if you have any technical problem or needed to be troubleshooted. In other words, there is an A-Team to support you at anytime during your day, my day, your night doesn't matter to support you 24 hours, to allow you to have access to what you need, to do your homework, your assignments to be successful in this. Amazing. Interrupt today's episode, look ahead. How does Mcgeorge Plain should grow and improve this exciting online program to keep up with the changes in the legal professional profession that you just mentioned? Technology evolves every day. There's so many factors you factor in, so I wanted to hear all about it. Fantastic. While looking ahead many, many things, you know, many ideas our brains is working around the clock here. We are already exploring new elective courses in such areas like cybersecurity, so IP in general, but digital trade, we can see a trend coming up where again, all this innovation with technology, there is a need. There's there's a growing 24 that we are also working on developing more experiment experiential components like you know, virtual externships working progress there, but trying to figure it out how we can translate that experience virtually. Simulations and a case studies tailored to the current global legal issues. As you know, we are all going through changes in the law, in the politics and we are keeping our eyes and ears open to see if there will be potential legal issues that would be of interest of our online population to have access since the changes affect the entire world right there. Long term of vision, I would say includes building a global alumni network for online students. Again, trying to expand the language support for students worldwide, continue to invest in faculty training for online teaching excellence so they can really shine and bring their expertise and ice cream and that the legal professionals become more global and technology driven. We want to make George online programs to lead that way, training the staff, our faculty, making sure we have access to the all high tech technology for our students to have access on the go, whether it's an app, work in progress there to facilitate the access to information 24/7. So that's the ultimate vision for us here at Mcchord School of Law. Amazing. But thank you so much for taking the time to share some of the latest developments of this very, very exciting opportunity. And I really appreciate you joining the podcast and and sharing these insights. Thank you so much for having me. I'm open to support your listeners and your followers in their journey and extending their mind and their careers with so much good information that is happening all over the world. Thank you. Thank you and for those of you listening, please make sure to check the show notes where you'll be able to find the links to be able to contact Adriana and also to learn more about Mcgeorge's new program. Thank you for listening and we'll see you on the next episode.