Determination, Vision, and Growth with Neil Montgomery

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. So many of the guests on this podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction for the first time, Grammatica International can help. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching designed just for legal professionals. I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five countries during my 17 years in law and education. Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills generally, refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn more. Today I have the opportunity to host Neil Montgomery. He is a graduate of the University of Sao Paulo in Brazil, where he studied both Bachelors of Laws and a Masters in International Law. He was admitted to the bar in Brazilian 97 and has since worked in different law firms, has worked in an English law firm, and he's now the founder and CEO of his own firm, Montgomery. So I wanted to thank you so much for coming to the podcast, for being willing to join us today, and you'll thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, Claudia. It's a pleasure to be here. Really appreciate it. And you started an interview today. I'd love for you to introduce yourself to our audience. So I just had a few highlights, but I'm sure that that there's a lot more where that comes from. OK, well certainly despite my name, I am Brazilian. I was born in Rio de Janeiro, my father is from Scotland, my mother was Brazilian. They met in Saint Paul in the 70s and have therefore dual national and both Brazilian because I was born in Brazil, but my dad being. British. I also have a British passport. I have lived in the UK twice in my life. When I was a. Kid, I lived a few months in a. Place called Solihull just outside. Of Birmingham in England and then three years in Aberdeen, Scotland, that's where. Maybe I acquired a little bit of a. Scottish accent which sticks. To this date. And then during my adult life. I also. Lived and worked as a in London, as a lawyer, as a foreign associate and so I left Brazil when I was 4. Returned. When I was 14. After Scotland, I lived six years in Lima. Peru, so that's where. I learned Spanish as well, so I've been around a little bit and I think the. Fact that I have. Traveled internationally has prepared me to be an international lawyer, and that's what I do nowadays. And Montgomery? Which as you said. Is the the law firm I founded here in Sao? Paulo specializes. In advising foreign clients doing business in. Brazil so. The fact that I moved around, learned several languages, and have a dual nationality prepared me. To do what I do today. Amazing. And as we were speaking in preparation for this podcast, I've heard a few of your interviews in the past and I really followed your career with a lot of enthusiasm. And I've heard of very interesting story about, you know, early in your career when you were working for a Brazilian firm and and you got the chance to travel to London and then basically rides that experience. So I'd love to hear a little more about that experience, and I think our audience would really appreciate that one. It wasn't so. Early in my career it was around I think 1006. So next year's 20th anniversary, therefore. And I had already been a lawyer for nearly ten years. Because as you said. I enrolled with the bar in Saint Paul in 1987, graduated 1986. So it was around about 10 years. I was at the time a very senior associate at a large Brazilian law firm and I was about to become an equity partner. And at the time I I knew. That. To become an equity partner, I needed to have a client base. So the. Way that I devised to start getting my own clients was to put on. What I call? The London Roadshow at the firm I worked. With at the the. Time always been more inclined with North America, especially the United States, and had not. Looked so closely to Europe a few years. Early when earlier when I was working for an English law firm in London, I, I had the experience for the first time of working as an international lawyer at a major firm. I made lots of good contacts when I returned to Brazil and then I, I moved to this other firm. I said now is the time to maybe look not to North America, but to Europe and more closely and specifically to London, not only. Because I had. Worked in London. Because also I've always. Seen London as probably the main International Centre. For legal services. In the world will definitely London was going to be. A very good place. To try and. Let's say harvest maybe? The first seeds planted. Several years ago so. At the time I went to the the managing partner of the firm or. Was. I asked. For frozen dollar budget for one week in London to visit law firms in the City of London. Those law firms tend to be quite large firms, and they have a lot of. International practice. So what I did was to access the websites of each of those. Law firms identify who was the manager and. Partner or who was? The partner responsible for their international practice introduce. Myself, who I was, who the firm was, what we. Did and to see? Whether they would have. 45 minutes to an hour to see me. So when I went to the management part and asked for this $5000 budget, several weeks passed after then and there was no response and. So more or less. After a month I went up to him and said. Now do we have a? A response from the board and he said. Well, the board is a bit skeptic. They don't really believe in the outcomes of these. Types of exercises we've. Done them in the past and they haven't produced the clients that we want and so it's a bit. Difficult maybe to get this approved at the board. Well, I turned to him then, and I think he must have been quite surprised. With what I had. To say, and I said look no problem, I have my my annual leave coming up. I'll take a week. Off my holidays. And I will self. Fund myself, I'll take $5000 from my bank account and I'm sure that I'll make this happen. And so I think you must have been quite surprised with the determination I had that when I when I contacted these law firms. Because I had a a tight budget, right? I would send an e-mail introducing myself, introducing the firm, and I would give them a specific date and a specific time that would like them to welcome. Me to their offices, because I was. Going to do everything using the London Underground and so. I would do it per region every day, so I had. More or less like. I mapped. I got a big. Map of London, the City of London. I pinpointed where. All the law firms. Were and then I I managed to confirm I think there were eight meetings. Per day, every day for five. Days at the time. This is going back to 2006 or well before the pandemic. Everybody was working at the office, not working from home, so I managed to pack in 40 meetings. At. 40 different law firms in London. Everyone welcomed me exceptionally well. Most of them had told me that it was the first time ever that a Brazilian. Lawyer had literally. Knocked on their door and so they were very interested in knowing more about myself, knowing more about my firm. And I showed that we had a sophisticated practice that. The common denominator? That I had with the people who. Welcomed me. Was, of course, the British. Nationality as well, and the language and the cultural ties. And I know that when I got to Wednesday in the middle. Of the week I had walked. So much cloudier, but so much up and down stairs and the Underground and the streets of London that my. Feet. Were literally in blisters and I remember arriving back at the. Hotel I had reserved a a well located but a three. Star apart. Hotel style hotel. And I took out all the bandages and had to bandage my feet. Because of the blisters, but the next. Two days, Thursday and Friday, I made. It with a little. Bit of pain of course, but I made it to all my meetings and when I returned over the weekend. Back to Sao Paulo. I returned with the sensation of mission accomplished. And this happened not, not very quickly, but in the months following, maybe in the 12 months following my trip to London, I got many referrals from many. Of the law firms. I had visited and. While I believe I. Didn't spend $5000 at the end because I was very economical after one year. The referrals I received had generated about 50. $1000 in terms. Of legal fees so I I. Proved my point that. I was capable of. Obtaining clients Damonte way, just going out there and knocking on the doors and really doing it wholeheartedly. Years later when I. Left the firm my client. Portfolio was already worth. Millions. And that allowed. Me to take. The even bolder step of setting up my own law firm. Because I already had. A very good client base. It's something that I did 20 years ago. I'm 51 today so I just turned. 30 So very, very, let's say early. In one's life, professional life, but I think it was. One of the best. Decisions I ever took because I'm here now, today with my own firm, because I planted those seeds back then. And I really. Was determined. I was resilient. I was methodical. I was consistent. Because year after year. I also returned to London to visit not only the same firms but other new firms during my journey as well, and that is what? Allowed me to. Plant the seeds for a future firm with my own name. That's amazing. What a story. I'm generally happy to to get to listen to it and to get to have it here in the podcast because it's just incredible what to do there. And you know, more and more in the last two episodes, I actually spoke to different lawyers about different approaches to business. And oftentimes we'll be very, you know, we'll hear about a few different tips and people will say very, you know, low involvement, kind of tips of how to to do business development be saying you nurture the relationships, reach out to people that you've talked in the past update and let them know what you're doing these days. But I love this approach of actually going and meeting with people and, and, you know, having a roadshow, as you said, I loved it. Yeah. I'd love to, to hear a little bit about, you know, if you could advise a young lawyer in 2025 in regards to business development to, to really building that network and, and book of business. What would you suggest? Well, I think one thing I've learned in over or nearly 30 years. Of. Lauren, I think the. Keyword is visibility. If there's one word and 1 tip I would give any lawyer or any professional is. For you to have. Visibility. Nowadays, potentially to have. Visibility. It may. Be a bit easier with all the technologies. We have social media, a video, conferences. I think it's potentially easier. To scale visibility. Back in the day 20 years ago, visibility meant knocking on. Doors, as you saw, but I think visibility. Is, especially if you want to have an. International Career. Is what makes you stand out, and you must stand out not only because. You're visible, but you're visible for the best. Reasons of course so. You have to be visible. Because you are seen. As a very good. Professional. And what you do? So somebody who knows? What you're doing somebody who is reliable, who can be trusted. Somebody who is nice as well. Because people like doing business with people they like. So I. Think you need? To show yourself as. Somebody who is a nice person, an interesting person. Who has? Tumble as well. I think you need to be humble always, every time. Regardless of what? Pinnacles you reach in your career, I think you need to always maintain your feet on the ground and be humble and be grateful for all the achievements you've. You've made over your your career, so visibility. For me has meant visiting firms, clients around the world. They do travel quite. Extensively it is also meant speaking at conferences, it in books, written articles, support in podcasts and other. Types of videos. This weekend, for example, I have an. Article to write. On the developments of gaming law in Brazil, which is 1 of. My practice areas so. I'm going to use the time that my, my wife and my, my eldest daughter, they're going to show in Sao Paulo tomorrow and I'll be staying at home right in my. Article SO. One thing also that I can give us a tip is that nothing comes free, everything takes. A lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of. Time, a lot of investment, so one thing that I think. I see is a bit difficult. For the younger generations. Is is this? That things do take a lot of effort and take time. There are no shortcuts. If you wanna really, well, long lasting career, it's something that takes time and visibility is something that of course ultimately you will achieve. You have to keep it as. Well, you cannot, let's say, simply rest on your laurels. You have to continue doing it. You have to be consistent. You have to be focused. You have to be determined so it is. It does make life. Very intense, and I think another thing is to have balance in one's life, not only professionally but personally. As well. So despite I have always worked a lot, but I've always dedicated. A lot of time dial to my family. I have a wife. I have two daughters. You can. See the photographs. Of them when they were much younger behind me. I've been married now for 25. Years my. Eldest daughter is 21, my youngest is 17, approaching 18 and I think being a. A. Good husband, a good father, teaching good stuff to our kids and being present really makes a difference as well. Well, I do. Work a lot and my family knows that and and really has supported me all along. They also know that when I'm with them, I'm with them as well. So I think having balance both in your personal life and your professional life does make a difference. You do need to excel in your profession, in your career you do need. To have full support. From home. Fantastic. Those are really good piece of advice here, talking about leadership and and really building your own firm as well. I'd love to hear a little more about that thought process. So you, you said that, you know, building that book of business, you were already a senior lawyer. So you definitely knew you already had the clients, you already had the knowledge of the law as well. But were there a few, you know, specific things that you learned as you were building your firm and now as well as you continue to lead it? Are there a few specific approaches that you are methodical on continuing to improve your practice? What are some of your thoughts on that? OK, well, Gwen, just. Back to the roadshow in order for you to be. A good salesperson, you need to know your stuff, so you need to know what you're selling. So in order. To be a good sales lawyer. You need to be a good lawyer in the 1st place. Working with foreign clients has really made me. Have a very broad practice. So nowadays. While I started as. A corporate manna lawyer and a large Brazilian firm. Back in 1996, when I was graduating from law school, working with foreign clients doing business in Brazil really helped me enlarge the scope. Of work I do. So nowadays it's not only corporate contracts, it's also M and A litigation, employment tax, IP and other specialisms. That I also over the years. Develop in for example. The aviation law. And gaming law as in gambling. So I think being a well-rounded lawyer, knowing the law. It's easier for you to sell your services. And this led also. 2A business. Model that I nicknamed and branded Lean full service where? With less lawyers you can provide a full service. To your clients. Because each lawyer practices at least two or three areas of law, I here at. The firm get involved in all areas and that has given me a lot of knowledge and all of a lot of experience and this is. The heart of what I call. Lean full service. It's like a general. Counsel in private practice where you are not only superficial in the areas you know well. You are a specialist, so. I can sit down. At a table after. Being a lawyer for nearly 30 years, as I said and. Discuss several. Different legal topics 1A par with lawyers from other firms that are specialists in their area. And so I think that has made me a very good salesperson as well because I know what I'm talking about. And here at the firm when I founded Montgomery in 2013 under the lean full service model that has given us. A very good case. Study and a lot of success because companies nowadays. They. All operate under tighter. Budgets. They wanna personalized service. And they want a. Cheaper service so with less cost because. We increase efficiencies. By having less lawyers do the full service. We can be more personalized, we can be more cost. Effective as well. And so that unites. Off of the factors. Needed for a firm like. Ours to succeed. We are now. Past our 12th. Anniversary next year we'll turn 13 and hopefully there will be many years to come and as the leader of the firm, if there's something. That I always like to do is to lead by. Example and the top biller and have been for many years. So despite all the traveling. All the business. Development, all the management, everything. I have still kept. Myself at the top of my internal ranking here being the top biller in terms of. Billable hours. And I like to inspire the younger generation and those who work alongside me to do the same. I'm always here early on one of. The first to. They arrive in the morning, one of the last. To leave practically every day I. Continue at home as well after dinner with my family. But it's the real resilience, the consistency that gets. You to the top so. From I have obtained the knowledge I've obtained, let's say the experience and I like to lead by example. So I want everyone who is working with me see. Well, if Neil has the management partner can do all everything he does, then there's no excuse for me not to do the same, right? And life is intense, I. Agree with that, but that's. What makes life very rewarding as well? I've met so many different people from around the world, many interesting. People like yourself, Claudio, who told me a little. Bit about your background before we started. This podcast. And I think if. You are a good person. And you do whatever you can do. To do good to at. Least from your own perspective, make. The world a better place? I think that's what makes the difference and I believe. That if you do. Good, good comes back. To you as well. And I have been. Grateful over the years. Doing the good and transforming peoples lives because that is also something that I believe Montgomery will. Leave as a legacy. I'm very well known in the market. It can be a problem sometimes because headhunters like to pick on our colleagues, but they know. That whoever has worked. At Montgomery is going to be a hell of a. Good lawyer because. We take the time, the patience to train and to. Prepare lawyers for. The legal market, not only in. Brazil, but worldwide so. I am very proud of our legacy in transforming and. Very positively. Peoples life lives professionally and not only that. Our firm has always. Been predominantly female and female lawyers have thrived. In their careers here. They have become. Mothers as well. Some have had one. 2 or even more. Children, and this has been. Let's say a safe. Birth for them to grow their. Families because life as. A a lawyer and a. Full service law. Firm can. Be very, very. Daunt and very difficult and I'm. Glad to say here. That we may be an Oasis within the legal market in Brazil and specifically in Sao Paulo, which is probably one of the toughest in. Brazil because of the, let's say. The balance. You have in your. Life both in and. Out of the firm. So that is also. Something very positive. That I'm very proud of. Here at Montgomery. I have one equity partner who is a female labour and employment lawyer. Dial She has had her child as well. She may be thinking of having another one in the near future. And we're very. Proud of. What we can leave, not only in terms of the professional changes we can make to 1's. Life, but the personal. Changes as well. Amazing. Well, that's that's quite inspiring to hear. And going forward here to wrap up today's episode, actually, I wanted to hear a little more about that, that continuance of business development. So you've shared your incredible story, you've shared some about your leadership style and how you do a business model in your firm. And I'd love to hear a little more about also, how do you once you have new clients, once you deliver exceptional work, and then how do you keep client relationships? And I say that from a perspective of somebody who's beginning in the profession. So I also thought I'd mentioned our, our main audience of the podcast are either law students or OK, professionals. So, so it's a, it's a lot of us that didn't have you had the opportunity to see, you know, a lot of a lot of transactions from beginning to end, year after year. But I'd love to hear a little more about your thoughts on on maintaining those relationships after the first legal service is off. Yeah. I I gauge success. Claudio, in terms of relationships, I think? If you're successful. In the relationships and you build strong relationships internally and externally. That is how you measure success and. It is tough. To keep any relationship. Whether it? Be within your family, within your friendships, within your business community relationships. They're difficult to maintain because they demand time, they demand effort, they demand a certain donation on the part of the people belonging to the relationship. So not everyone has the patience potentially to dedicate themselves. As they should. To any sort of relationship and we're. Happy to say. That here at the firm we now have over 1000 clients, 90% are multinational companies and each relationship with each client is as important to us as any other. It's not because a. Client is bringing $1000 or $1,000,000 that the relationship will be different. We use. The passion we have in the same. Degree to provide the best possible legal services. To each individual client, each one of those 1000 clients and we like to make them special and feel special not only because they have dedicated client partner. To all his oversee. The work that is being done, the client partner may not be. The person, of course, for obvious. Reasons doing all the. Work because that's why we have other. Lawyers and other teams. But there. Will always be 1. Partner to hold. The hand of the client within the firm and to give the comfort to that client that everything is in order, everything is progressing and everything is being overseen and when clients. Visit us as well. Physically, here in Sao Paulo to our offices in Villa Olympia, we also welcome them in a different manner. We have. A television in our reception where in several languages we welcome the person who is visiting and also we include the name, we include the name of the company as well. So from the very moment the person steps foot at Montgomery, the receptionist and the infrastructure. Will already. Provide a more welcoming environment for that client and this is what. We like to do throughout the legal services. We we provide not only all lawyers and even the most senior lawyers like myself. Are always involved. I always take a lot of care. To be present at video conferences. To be available. For my clients, even though I'm traveling internationally, I'm just one WhatsApp message away, one e-mail, 1 telephone away. And I think when you do things with fashion, hold. Heartedly, as we do. Nothing is difficult, everything is easy, right? It won't be a strain on you if you do things with passion and I think. If you dedicate yourself wholeheartedly to your. Clients. Your clients will appreciate that and there will be your long standing client. So for those. Students who are about to graduate from university, if there's one tip I can give besides everything. I've said so far is. To do everything wholeheartedly, with passion, without expecting anything in return. And you'll see that people will remember you. Your reputation will live up to you and. People will. Admire you and inspire and we'll be inspired by. You this week I had. The very fortunate situation where a lawyer I hadn't dealt with for 15 years, so somebody prior to the foundation of Montgomery reached out to me to introduce a client of his and. We did a video. Fortunately, I saw the e-mail, it had landed in my my junk inbox in my spam. So it's always very important to check your junk box is not only the inbox because you never know where clients will appear and I was so. Happy that he still. Remembered the services are. Offered. And hopefully we're going to. Work together with this. New client as well and this was a time. This was the first time I actually metem face to face. Because 15 years ago there wasn't the habit of videoconferences so. We only corresponded and exchanged and interacted by e-mail. This time I managed to see him face to face by video conference. So what I say? Is that never lose any opportunities to. Network as well. You never know where the next client, the next relationship will arise. Once returning from the United States from a conference had been a speaker my flight, which was going from San Francisco to Miami and then Miami to Sao. Paulo was cancelled and I was. Rerouted through New York. I was really pissed off because of the extra. Time that it would. Take to get back to Brazil. But on my flight from new. York to Sao Paulo, I sat beside the HR director. Of a multinational company. That has had. A presence in Brazil and I. Told my story. Of how I had founded my firm. It had been just. A few years after. The foundation, we got along well. I like to chat and I encourage. People always to. Not be shy and to chat. With people who are. Beside, you never know. What you will. Discover and after many hours of chitchatting. The HR director. When she got off the plane. With me said, I'll introduce you. To our general counsel. To see. Whether there's anything we can do? Together we do. Have another firm? This counselor in Brazil, but I. Really liked your. Ethos I liked your spirit. And I would love for our. Organizations to work together. And that's actually what happened. So over the years. We got more and more business from this company and then became their. Exclusive exclusive advisors in Brazil and it all started because first fate to a certain. Degree played a role. Because. Had I not been diverted? I would never had sat beside this person. And also part of me. To reach out to. Be communicatively and to establish a a conversation with the person sitting beside me. That's that's amazing. I can see that if we were to talk here for another hour, you'd have many and many of those stories, and it's just incredible. But. Yes, yes. I just had a lot of the credit to you for putting yourself out there and. You cannot be. Shy as a. Lawyer Claudio, never be shy. I think that. Is the. Main tip to the youngsters out there. Is to. Believe in yourself if you've gone to. University, you've graduated. As a lawyer, you must know your stuff. So believe in yourself. And don't be shy. I love it. I love it. Well, Neil, thank you so much for taking the time to being in the podcast today to share all. Thank you for being fantastic and I look. Forward to. Meeting you in person in Toronto. Later this year. For the annual conference. Of the IBA. Right, that's right. I'll be there. I'm looking forward to meeting you in person too. Likewise. Amazing. Well, thank you all so much for tuning into today's episode. Well, since you mentioned it, if you're coming out to the IBA conference in Toronto this November, please do send a message and we'll make sure that we have a podcast meet up.