From Stranger to Co-Host: The Last ‘Series Within the Series’ Episode with Erika Bailey

Welcome to your studying law around the world. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode I talk with lawyers, law students and professors from different parts of the world. She talk about legal education, careers and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. This episode is sponsored by Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn? If you're like 99% of lawyers. Your answer is not great, which makes sense. You learned LinkedIn as the place to stash a digital resume and share firm pressers, so no wonder your LinkedIn presence is somewhere between vanilla and nonexistent. But I've got good. News Since we all learned LinkedIn the wrong way, it's pretty easy to attract more positive attention for you or your business. Since 2022. Contender. Has been the premier agency. Helping lawyers go from invisible train possible to ignore on LinkedIn. To learn more, check out www.contenderllc.com. Tell them Claudio sent you. Today, I'm here again with Erica Bailey. Thank you so much for joining us today, Erica. I'm both happy and sad. It's great to be here. Yeah. No, it's great. You mentioned that because there is a particular reason for this episode to be that. And can you, can you take over and tell us a little more of what we're doing here today? For sure. So hi everybody, this is Erica Bailey. I am the graduate Career Advisor at the Faculty of Law, University of Toronto and Ayesha and her pronouns. And this is the very last time that Claudio is allowing me the grace and the gift of hosting this podcast on his behalf. Very quick recap for anyone who's not yet listened in, but you're joining us for the first time this time last year, this guy by the name of Claudio reached out and he's like, I'm going to be GPL student, I run this podcast, I want to interview you. I was like, who is this person? What are we going to do? And so I would have thought about it. I thought, sure, I can interview, but I'm not as interesting as Claudio is for sure. And I thought, no, let's see if he'd be willing to Co host. So he has graciously allowed us to have now our fifth conversation. I think it is and where I interview him because this time last year he wasn't even in Canada but was preparing to come and to begin his program. And I thought what an incredible opportunity to interview an internationally trained lawyer who is figuring out how to license in another country and to learn about the junctures at which, you know, we can reflect on what happens when you're sort of trying to qualify somewhere else. So that's why we're doing this. And so I guess maybe for those who haven't listened, are those who love the episodes so much they want to recap. Claudio, why don't you walk us through a little bit about some of the key points that we've touched on in the past episodes? Absolutely. So it, it, it all started with, you know, being show in Brazil, getting my bags ready and basically sharing a little bit of what it felt like what it was doing at this time of year. Last year I was applying for summer in articling jobs, right. So it, it's such an interesting timeline of how that goes. I got the chance to share a little bit of what it was like to prepare to leave and, and coming over, talked a little bit about why I chose Canada, making plans with families and also getting ready to to start this new journey and then got here and started a new episode. Then sharing a little bit about the essentials or, or the first few things you do once you move to the new country. So all the essentials from setting up a bank account, phone plan, all kinds of things. And then school started finally. So got you learned a lot and share some of the insights from those first few classes we've had. And they were very, very foundational, were very important to everything else we built upon in the upcoming classes. And our third episode, if I'm not wrong, talked a little more about the job market and what the interview experience was like. And, and all of that, a little bit of the ups and downs of the regulated recruits, which included, you know, rejections, waiting for results and also staying grounded, leaning on family, finding my strengths and, and learning a little more about myself in the process. I really enjoyed that part. And then talked about, you know, in our previous episode about my project for the school's 75th anniversary, interviewing 75 lawyers, which was amazing. And talked a little more about networking, about community, about the idea of not wanting to just get a job, but actually build some more meaningful relation in this process. And so that leads us to our final one, doesn't it? That's right. That's right. That's that's what I'm thinking here. Yeah, for sure. And so here we are. You're about to write your final exams, I think, and so I was wondering if you could reflect back on this final semester of time. What stands out for you? What's the hardest part? What do you want people to know about this sort of concluding their studies if they're pursuing a program of study to complete their National Committee on Accreditation Assessments? Yeah, it's incredible to be at this stage for so many different reasons, right? So I believe that the first big one that really comes to mind is I loved this feeling of finishing something I started. So many times in life I've. I've questioned myself whether I'm able to finish projects that I start because I really try to put a lot of energy, time and, and intention in all the projects that I get myself involved in. And sometimes when you put a lot of that writing in the beginning, it can be, it can be hard to get to the end with the same enthusiasm. And honestly, I've been so blessed and happy to have such a supporting community that allowed me to continue this process with that, just that much of, of excitement, enthusiasm, friendship and all that. So I'm just very happy to be in this community that cheers me on and to be a part of this community. Also cheering on the the new students that are coming in that are reaching out and all of that. But it's, it's very interesting to this, you know, kind of ending at a little cycle that it's just one of the steps of becoming a lawyer here. But it's just very important one. So very excited, very in a tense mode, as finals week always is. But I think that if anything, it's because we care a lot about showing that we learned those contents and making sure that we have the best material selection to make sure that we go into the exams with all the resources we need. So it's it's been amazing in that sense. It's a it's definitely a bittersweet moment. You're speaking about community and I wonder if we could go back into that for a moment. And you know, for certainly for anyone who's contemplating starting a journey like this, they may be wondering why you're talking about community. Who are who would you consider part of your community and how did you discover them and build them? Coming new to Canada like? That no, absolutely. So I, I think that the closest community we build is those colleagues that are with you every weekend, right? So naturally those conversations don't end when class is over. We continue chatting during the week. We've met for lunches and coffee chats and all of that so that we could get to know each other a little better. And now everybody knows a little more about their counterparts and all of that. So definitely built a lot of friendships in that sense and, and community. And that's I think the, the closest community we get. And then there's kind of a second level community, which are the, the other colleagues that are not necessarily that close group of friends, but also that you, you know, you see them every weekend and you chat a little bit and you always know a little bit about their lives and say, Hey, how's your, how's your son doing? How is that thing doing? Specifically? You mentioned you were going on interviews this week. How did that go? It's definitely a point of contact there and as part of that community as well in that, in that same level, if we were to make a category, I believe that the team that works at the university also, it is part of that because they always see us over the weekend, always checking up on us and seeing how things are. And just like we do with our friends saying like, Hey, how's your son doing? How's your daughter doing? You guys should know that And and, you know, remind us that you know who we are. So it's, it's very amazing to make us really see that this is not just about, you know, number or a profession or, you know, just a professional responsibility you have as part of your job. But that does have, you know, a, a much deeper layer to that and then the brother alumni community that we get to interact in different events and, and throughout the law school. But I definitely would say that that the closed community are those friends that you see every weekend. Absolutely. And we often say that the value of the program is as much what you put into it and engage with it, meaning that you're setting up the chats that you're going for that coffee with someone just meant that you're reaching to new people in the class. But also you're reaching out to those alumni, you're attending employer events that you are finding other members who can be part of your community that can support you during what can be quite a dynamic Changing is sometimes challenging time. And so I think, you know, especially to yourself and many, many others in this year's cohort, we saw a lot of engagement. And so the great outcomes are because of the great input. And so I just need to sort of add that as we sort of shifting our roles here from interviewer to interviewee, I just thought it's important to reflect on that. And, you know, as you were to reflect back, so this time last year, you were like trying to figure out how you going to put your whole life in a bunch of bags and bring your soon to be slightly larger family in on a plane land in Canada. If you could go back to July 2024, Claudio, and give yourself three points of advice, would you tell your. Past self Well, that's a good one. So I, I believe that the, the first thing that comes to mind is definitely something that we've discussed in previous episodes and it is to get as much information as you can. Definitely this ride has been somewhat smooth for me because I got the opportunity to hear from a lot of people and to get as much information as I could. So I don't feel like I, I came in blind in any part of the process. If I didn't understand it completely, at least I had a general idea of it. So I didn't feel in any moment that, you know, something caught me off guard or something, you know, this appeared out of nowhere and they had no clue. And that's thanks to that, thanks to looking for information, having lots of generous people that that we're willing to share that. And I would definitely recommend the same. And so I would say, you know, make sure that if you're coming to the GPL program, that you do participate actively in the Pathways to Licensing program to start with. That's our graduate career program where we get to learn all about employment in the NCAA journey in Canada. So that's one of the very important points. And of course, talk to other people that have gone through it so they can tell you a little more about this timeline and how you can figure that out. And, and especially how that's possible. Have a lot of people did it and you can do it to. It might feel a little daunting when you first hear about how many steps there are. But once you're in it, promise that it flows a lot smoother than it seems. And I think that that's a big number one thing #2 would assuming that same arena would be to, to get, you know, people, right? So be it for, you know, building that community we were just talking about. It's really hard to do things all on your own. Yeah. Even if you're, if you feel like your personality is one that doesn't allow you to be energized, especially when you're, you know, interacting with other people, if that makes you tired, I would say that it's worth it beach for having people to, you know, just chat when you need to have people that can tell you a little more about a subject you didn't understand well in class or be it for people who are just not willing to maybe open some door for you and sponsor you along the way. So there's, there's lots of different reasons why building community makes sense and it makes sense to stay healthy and to have a sustainable career anywhere you go. So I would say look into meeting people looking to continually do that. And then for #3 say that an important step is also take one step at a time, right? So even though you want to be well informed about what's ahead, take time, take a deep breath and take one step at a time. So as I said, it might feel like there's so much to be done, but if you go ahead and do one step at a time within the timeline, everything works out. Just like I said, lots of people went through this process before. So it, it's not like uncharted waters. And we definitely can, can make sure that with some organization and making sure that we keep our sanity, we can do one step at a time. And that just is a good way to to make it work, not only in the NCAA journey to become a lawyer, but also for most things in life, right? I feel like just making, making sure you you take your time to do things really, really helps. And even in that sense that I mentioned earlier, when you start something with too much enthusiasm, there's this little risk of burning out. So if you can step back for a second and just reflect on, you know, I'm informed of what's ahead. There's nothing I can do for now. So I'll just be aware that that's going to happen in due time. But right now I'm just going to concentrate on what's in front of me. So not wanting to be no, you know, mindfulness coach or anything like that, but I do think that's a, that's a genuine piece that maybe even I could use a little more of as I go to in my day-to-day life here. Thank you. You know, those are sort of points of wisdom and I often think of wisdom not as you know something, but you know how to apply it. And you know, it's now July 2025 and you are finishing the program, you're halfway done your summer placement. And I'm curious how these three points of advice and any other thoughts you may have you want to share about how does that show up in your current moment in time and in at this phase in your in your journey becoming a licensed lawyer in another country? Hmm, no, absolutely. So speaking on those three points, right on the first point to be about being informed of what's ahead and making informed decisions that that never ends. So any career you're building, any educational pursuit, you always have to to be somewhat aware of what's ahead. So regardless of which stage you are right now, my, my focus is under understanding and making sure that I fulfill all the requirements to take the bark Sam. And then I'm looking into what the bar exam looks like. What do I have to study for it and how do I study for it? So those are my next few steps that I look ahead. But right now concentrating into my final exams for the GLM. So I'm still having to write a contract exam this Sunday. And then that's all all done. So it's, it's only once you go, But yeah, definitely having to take a look at that, looking at what's ahead, but leaving the moment my my third piece that I shared. And then on the sense of building community, I did say that my community where those people that I was seeing every weekend, right? But now it's the next challenge of making sure that we should stay in touch and connect. Even though everybody's going to be spreading a little more. We're not going to be seeing each other every weekend. How do you continually nourish those relationships? Right, Because definitely we care about you, each other, but it's not, it's definitely something that that in my end at least, I feel like goes way beyond what the GPL is and it goes way more into our lives and real friendships that should should hopefully be life long lasting. So I believe that that's what comes to mind. And beyond that, of course, you know, making friendships at work, meeting people outside the program, obviously, and just, yeah, taking one step at a time. How is it going through some replacement, I mean, you know, without telling, you know, tales out of school, but how are you finding the application of the knowledge that you've learned your past, you know, experience and how are you finding it showing up or or being challenged in your summer placement, right? Now, absolutely. So in my personal experience, we start our GLM with a class on legal research and writing. And when I first saw it, I'm like, oh, that's great. We'll reveal a lot of stuff that I already know about. We'll see maybe something new or not, but it was just incredibly helpful. Honestly, legal research and writing and negotiation have been two of the most useful classes because of course, all of the, the, the hard subjects that go deep into the large, so important to understand the context and all of that. But if it feels very much that those classes are things that in a way I could, you know, research, read a book and all of that. But this is specific abilities and skills that we got to practice and hear feedback on and all of that. It wouldn't be as easy to just get out of, you know, watching a video or reading a book. So in my day-to-day practice, I find myself reviewing those notes. There's a lot of principles that go into legal writing, especially for memos and all of that. There's substantive headings and point first writing where we start with the conclusion. So all of those principles that we learned about last August or last September, they keep coming up in a weekly basis in my work. And I feel there is some some some sense of pride to to be like, Hey, I remember that I studied this in class. Now it's time to put it into practice. So I think that's one one of the points. And then as you might previous practice as well, a lot of being a lawyer in general, especially if you don't have, you know, a lot of support team that you can assign things to is being able to figure things out, solve problems. And that comes with lots of different ways. It can be, you know, when you're finding some kind of Rd. block and you just have to pick up the phone and call that third party and say, Hey, this is what's happening, This is what we need to do. What do you say, you know, get to to understand those situations? And then a second part of it is being tech savvy as well. You know, maybe I don't know how something works specifically, but I kind of take a look, figure it out, Google it, watch a quick YouTube video of how to do it, and then boom, it's done faster than asking somebody else to explain me how they usually do it right. So there's a lot of that, a lot of figuring things out. I feel like that's one of the the marks of my experience for sure. Hmm, Yeah, it's interesting because as much as you know, substantive knowledge is so important, it's the ability to behave and to practice, literally do the work and constantly learn and learn and learn in the work that you're takes that knowledge and it makes it come alive in in a place of work doesn't. It absolutely. That makes a lot of sense and aligns very much with what what it all looks like in a day-to-day basis. Brilliant, Really. Are there some additional thoughts you want to leave with? People who are listening to people who are in programs of study that help them meet their NCAA assessed requirements. People who are internationally trained, others who are doing the challenge exams, but especially to future lawyers or people who are sort of trying to figure out how to become a lawyer in another country. You may want to speak specifically to Canada, but there's some final points you want them to know. Yeah, I, I would say that a lot of it would probably come from that same place that I started this conversation in the sense that, you know, it feels very, very hard when you first look at all the different steps you have. But a lot of people who are in this profession should start with are people who've gone through extensive, you know, education, extensive standardized testing. So it, it's not like we haven't done hard things before. So this might be just another one of those. And just a point maybe specific to to this experience that I'm leaving. But I believe it's very much the shared experience that my colleagues have as well, is that this is a place talking about this point in time and these geographic area where people are really open to sharing their experiences. If you reach out. I'm just very, very glad to feel like I do have somewhat of a community in the profession because lawyers are open to sharing what what's what took them to where they are, how their life goes on in a day-to-day basis. And. Many of the times they're just not in a position where they could help you in the sense of give you something immediate. And, and I understand the frustration sometimes when my colleagues are looking for articling or looking for a summer job. And those lawyers that are so nice with you and that have the nicest conversations just don't have any hiring power or any, any influence in the process in the sense that they can do that directly. But still they are willing and generous to share their time and, and to chat with you. So I would definitely say that that's important to me in the sense of building a community, understanding what goes on. I, I think it would be maybe boring, just talk with people who are all decision makers, right? So you definitely, there's a, there's a, definitely a bright side to that, to speaking to people who maybe don't have that, that level within the firm that maybe can even speak a little bit more candidly about what, what it looks like and and so forth. So I would say, you know, go ahead. If you're, if you're thinking about it, if you're trying to put your pros and cons on the table, it's definitely a reward, a rewarding career. It's very interesting one and all of that into consideration, but also it's, it's a profession that's true rewards people in the financial sense. Well, so it's if anything, there is another attractive to that and it is a place that does accept international presence, regardless of what you might hear around or that you might experience in one more isolated experience. There are internationally trained lawyers in high places in all different kinds of firms. So don't, don't be discouraged if you heard a bad experience that somebody had or if you had one bad experience yourself or maybe a few more than one. But I don't think it's worth giving up on your dream and your career just because of those. So I would say keep on keeping on. Inspiring moment to pause and reflect on so much of the conversation that we've had not only in this podcast, but throughout the year. And perhaps we need to formally give you your mic back because I think this is the final of our conversations. But I just before I give you the officially give you the mic back, I just want to thank you for trusting me with this conversation, with the emergent quality of conversation and how it can lead in such surprising ways. But that inside there's so much wealth of wisdom and knowledge that you've been able to share with everyone. And thank you not only for that, for your vulnerability and your openness, your generosity. And so I've wished to now formally resign my my role as Co host and to once again thank you for the honor in being in community with you and to be in dialogue with you. Well, the, the, the, the filling of gratitude is just the same. Yarway, Erica, thank you so much for taking the time to be a part of this project. I really appreciate your insights, your questions, and being able to have you as a helpful advisor. And one that I'm so happy to think about what kind of a career you have where you can see people's lives changing and, and all these experiences happening and know that you played the role in that. Also, once you acknowledge how much of A role you played in in my own career as I go on my next steps, I really appreciate all your help and we will definitely stay in touch. Even if you don't come back as a co-host. I hope that our conversations never end. And I really appreciate your time here once again. And thank you guys for tuning into this series, within this series, in the show. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you on the next episode. This episode was sponsored by Contender. Check them out at contenderllc.com.