75 Coffee Chats and a Canadian Winter Later: Reflecting on the GPLLM Journey

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. In this episode, I'll be glad to have Erica Bailey with me. She's the graduate career advisor at the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto, and she has been in the podcast before. We've done a few episodes before, and we do a special format when she joins me here. So, Erica, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and also tell us a little recap on what we're doing here together? Hi everybody, It's great to meet you. My name is Erica Bailey and I use she and her pronouns and as Claudio says, I'm the graduate career advisor. I have the great distinction and privilege to be able to support internationally trained lawyers in the global professional Master of Laws and Master of Laws programs. And when Claudio was still an incoming student, as you probably have quickly learned his very eager to outreach to new people kind of person and he said I'd like to interview you about, I can't even remember the topic labour market or resumes. I don't even remember and I thought, you know, my story and my insights aren't as interesting as what it might be for all of you who are listening today, because I think it's important to understand what's it like to go into an international program of study? What are some of the considerations? What's it like to live through it? And so Claudio, I think is a perfect specimen. So I invited that we turn the tables a little bit. So we you're used to hearing Claudio doing the interviews. And so in this time I'll be interviewing Claudio to really think about his own experience, not just as you know, in the program here at the University of Toronto and the Global professional Master of Laws, but broadly as an internationally trained lawyer, new in Canada. What does that mean for him and his career and his licensing journey, his learning about the law here? So that's why we are doing it this way. Today amazing. And we'll, we'll continue on this journey. On the previous episodes, we talked about, you know, living my home country, what was it like, what I had to prepare, what was in my luggage, and then went on to talk about how the first semester felt like. Talked a little bit about the recruitment, the first few exams. So it's just been very interesting to do all of that. And honestly, for me, it's been some kind of, you know, journaling, you know, where I get the chance to go back and, and listen to the thoughts of what was my mindset back then or what things I was thinking. And this year has just gone by so quickly, especially the academic year, the way it's set out. And I'm now taking my last two courses of the GPL. Can you believe that? Eric I can and I cannot. Every year it feels faster and faster, but I also know it goes so quickly. I can't believe like we, we had a really hard winter this year and so this whole winter semester has passed without us having a conversation. And I think it might be interesting to hear about your experiences of studying law while in one of the coldest winters in recent memory in Canada. How did winter? How did your winter term go? Well, it's very interesting. I feel like I get asked that by my family and friends a lot. And one thing that is very real is that you just really feel cold when you go outside, right? So literally like it's going to the train station or going, you know, from your car to point A to B. But usually you don't feel the cold as much. What I really noticed that maybe I hadn't noticed as much before is really the amount of sunlight you have every day, right? So it, it does in a way, like take a toll on your body. You know, when the sun comes out just like 9:00 AM and goes away at 4:00 PM, there's definitely some some effects that that does your body. I feel like, and that was one of the the big observations for me during this summer semester. But you know, it, it's part of the experience. And it was quite nice, you know, getting to see the snow, getting to see the campus all white. So I feel like that that was one of the highlights of studying during the winter. Did you get out and play in the snow at all? Yep, Yep, Head should do that, right? So we had a little baby and we just had to introduce her to the snow as well. So yeah, just had a good time. Great. That's wonderful. And So what were some of the courses like for you over the winter term and how are you finding it, especially someone who's civil law trained, how are you finding the comparison between common law and civil law? And how are you, how are you thinking now that might be different than when you either started in January or even looking further back to September? Absolutely. So last semester we had admin law and tort law. And I feel like the the obvious big difference is the difference that common law uses precedence, right. So use cases. And it was very interesting especially in tarts how we studied a lot of UK cases and then a few USA cases and then how, how it kind of evolved in Canada. So it was just very interesting to see the very like international nature of some of the subjects. Whereas in a civil law jurisdiction, or at least in Brazil specifically, most of it is, is very much you go to the code, you read the code and you see, you know, yes, no, So it's, it's a lot less nuanced in no way, at least from my personal perspective, from what I was able to gather, but it, it was very interesting. It was just a semester full of learning. Definitely very interesting subjects to, to go over how much administrative law is in our day-to-day life. It's just incredible to see. And then tarts, we hear about, you know, slip and fall and all these things and we don't maybe don't give too much thought about how that process goes, but it was just very, very interesting to study. And those were classes I took all throughout the semester. And then at the end of the semester, I took an intensive course negotiation, and that was just very, very interesting to different than the the semester long classes. The negotiation course was a lot more practical. So we got the chance to first of all, get to talk with a lot of colleagues that I hadn't talked much with, which was amazing because just our cohort is so big, right? So we don't really get you chat a lot of with everybody. And it was just great. She in no way meets these people that I'm sharing a classroom for a year now. And on another note, it was just great to, you know, learn more about what negotiation principles look like. We hear about negotiation sounds fun and all of that, but there's actually kind of like a science behind it, how you should go about it, how you know, how you start a negotiation makes a difference and, and all of those things. So it was this is very, very enjoyable semester. Good to hear. I mean, I, I, I think you know, absolutely you're learning a lot about the content. And I'm curious, can you, can you identify if at all ways in which you think or respond to information on the study of law differently than you did before? Have you learned some skills or perhaps there's been a challenge this semester that perhaps is really made you dig deep and and try new resiliency skills that would be important for. You absolutely. So on a first note, of course there is, I feel like there's a maturity, a point to it. So when I was doing my bachelors, I was too, you know, out of high school, like as a, as a first opportunity you don't get, you don't spend too much time thinking about how you learn early on. So as you mature, you kind of know better what's effective for you, what's not. So there's definitely that point where I no longer try to copy what everybody else is doing, but I know a little bit better of like this is how I should take my notes so that I can learn a little more. But something that happened in the semester as well is that we had a few changes at the faculty. And now the way we get tested on exams changed a little bit. And because of that, it also made most of us change the way we were preparing for exams, right? So beforehand, we were able to bring just a, an extensive amount of material. And now in this new approach, we're not doing as much. So it definitely made me think about, you know, how can I make better notes? How can I use post dates and and highlighter and all these things to make after that? I can go through my notes quickly during an exam. So it was just an interesting semester to to get adapted to change. We always know that change is the biggest constant in life, but it was definitely an interesting challenge, you know, to go about this again, to go about beforehand, I was I was taking this like 100 page file to an exam because I'm like, if I don't remember anything, I'll be able to find it there, right. But you know, in the end, it was just kind of like a comfort in the back of your mind that you'd have. And now it was a lot more, you know, to the point a lot more what does really matter for me to take to this exam? Let me make sure that I have this summarized and that I know how to get to it quickly. So it was definitely interesting in this sense, basically trying a new. That's great. I mean, in some ways being able to be discerning, to really understand the material, just not know where to find things because finding material like finding information is not what people need. They need lawyers to be really critically thinking about it, to have a strong analysis to to make sense of it, to know what's relevant, what's not, to be able to do quick recall as necessary. And so it sounds like you've started developing that skill in a good way. Yeah, absolutely. It's so interesting how in different stages of your life, some skills are more necessary than others, right. So I guess when you have that comfort of having all the material in front of you, maybe you don't necessarily exercise that muscle as much of discernment and of summarizing and of focusing on what really matters as a whole. And then when you know, this situations put you in a position where you know, you kind of have to do that, then you tend to develop that even more. So it was definitely a good opportunity to to get to the point to, you know, develop those skills further and to just really test it out and see what worked best, which I think is really valuable in life. You just test something out, see if it works out, and if it works out, you stick to it. Or if you see there's any way to improve it, you do it for the next round. So that's that's what's winter semester was a lot about. Yeah, for sure. And I think that winter semesters all like to me, the word that is often used as resiliency. But resiliency can look and feel a lot like many things, right? But it sounds to me like that creative engagement to say, right, something's changed. And that is such a remarkable skill. And it's it's so necessary in so many areas of our lives, not just academics, but also in your careers. Absolutely. No, I, I totally have to agree with that. I love that you said that resiliency looks different and looks like a lot of different things because it really does. I feel like we only really think about it when, when you know, somebody asks something specific. Are you hearing inside or you hear somebody's experience? But it really is after all this opportunity that you get to, you know, adapt again or are you do something differently that you're used to doing in in a different way. So it was it was interesting to see. There's this common joke that goes around talking about when you join a new firm or when you start a new job. They basically say that it's basically you are a new character in the 55th season of that show, right? So everybody has all the inside jokes, everybody know what's going on and you're just basically training there to figure it out. And I feel like life does that to you time and time again. So be it a team changing side, your firm, be, you know, going into a different department at the university or just going into a class with classmates that didn't choose to take that same class. It it happens more than we we'd like to acknowledge maybe, and it's just good. It's good to be out of your comfort, even though it's super cliche to say that growth happens out of your comfort zone, but it's really a true statement. 100% and they use that point, I think, because I know you've not only learned it by doing it, but you've learned it through hearing it. And so for those listeners who are familiar with your very, very beautifully written at LinkedIn activities, they know that you have been interviewing, even had created a little bit of a project for yourself interviewing lawyers here in Canada. And so I'm curious if you'd like to discuss some of the, what was the seed of that idea and how did it go? And what are some of the some of the things you've learned through your networking that you think you'd like to share here? Absolutely. So when I first started at UFT, and I think I even mentioned this in one of the podcasts we recorded together, there was a big celebration for the 75 years of the universe of the Faculty of Law, specifically in the university. And we got to attend an event in a gala and all of that. And we even sat together, right, And sat close to each other. And honestly, it was just so incredible for me to be sitting in front of, you know, all of these basically legal royalty of Canada. Yeah. Basically there were, you know, former Supreme Court justices, ambassadors, judges, professors, partners of law firms. So there was a lot of very important people altogether in the same conference. And it was just very inspiring to see. But I also felt like, you know, at first, it's awesome that I get to belong into this. So I felt that strongly. And then I was also thinking, how can I engage with these people? Like, I want to talk to them, right? This is a quick event, but I also want to get to know a little bit more about their lives, about their stories. And after that event, and I've been active on LinkedIn for a while, but I got to see a few people that I followed in the US and what they were doing as JD students, they had a challenge to meet with 100 lawyers through their three years of law school. So if you think about it, three years, 100 people, it's not that big of a deal, right? Like it's challenging. It's one every two weeks or so. Exactly, yes, and, and all of these things just got cooking in my mind and I'm like, you know what, I want to meet with 75 lawyers because it's 75 years of the faculty. I want to meet with the lawyers here. Let's do it. So I just basically put it out there on on LinkedIn that I was going to start this project and I was overwhelmed by the the openness of the community. You know, so many people told me incredible things. I've heard things like my days are very stress filled, high stakes. I have to do everything with so much care. And sometimes when a student reaches out and I get to just lightheartedly talk with them for a couple of minutes, it just really breaks out the tension of my day. I'm like, Oh my goodness, am I helping you by by asking your questions? It was just very, very nice to get the opportunity to know people in different generations to hear about their law school memories. A lot of the people that I interviewed are UFT alumni, right? So it was just very interesting to hear all the different things that they took out of university. They would ask me about the name of a few professors and I'm like, I'm, I'm not sure if they're there sure or not, but it was just very interesting to get to know the community a little better. And I, and I feel in a way even more a part of it now that I'm connected to, you know, different generations of the, the university as I went about the project as well. I got the chance to partner with the advancement office and will be coming out with a booklet soon with insights from these lawyers that I got to interview. So their quotes picture. So we'll get you to know who is the person behind the quotes that I have been sharing. And I'm so excited for that part of the project as well. I'm so excited for that as well. And I, I think you know Claudio, there might be people listening saying 75 new people and you reach 75 when how many people you, you managed to reach your goal, right? That's right. That's right. So as I was about to start my summer job, I was like, I have to finish this because I don't know how my schedule is going to be and all of that. So I definitely reached out to a lot of people during the month of March and most of our coffee chats happened between March and April. And yeah, I was able to actually meet with a little over 75 because what happened is that I had to reach out to a lot of people to get you here back, right? So I probably reached out to you over 200 lawyers. What ended up happening is that when I finished my 75, then a few people got back to me and they were like, so sorry, I was so busy, I got your e-mail. Would you still wanna meet? And I'm like, absolutely, let's do this. Great, I'm glad you you said no, no, that you didn't, you didn't say no that I think it's really good that you keep those connections going. I imagine that there are. So for those who are listening, you probably can guess that Claudia was pretty extroverted, well at least presents as such and so really comfortable going out and meeting new people. But was there a moment where you felt a little nervous there probably be helpful for those who are maybe a little more introverted or a little uncertain about how do you approach Canadian people like how do you talk to Canadians? So I'm curious, what did you learn about talking to Canadian lawyers that might be helpful from an international perspective? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for bringing that up. I think I was very lucky to actually have coffee chats with just tremendous, generous people right at the beginning. That helped me to get a good start. A few of the actually one of the first lawyers that I talked with, she asked me like, how many of these have you done before? I think I don't know how well it was going, but she brought this up and I'm like, I'm just starting. And she was like, how about I lead this coffee chat today just so you know how it's usually done and you can kind of like take the most out of it because maybe you don't know what questions to ask about what I've done and all of that. So I was really like, so lucky to get that kind of mentorship about how to go about it, coffee chat in practice that I couldn't like see it going that well without this kind of guidance, you know? So why don't you uncover a little bit what does a good coffee? How does a good coffee chat go? People want to know. Absolutely. So I think it always starts with respectful invite. So I was usually going to reach out to people on LinkedIn or through e-mail asking, telling them a little bit about what I was doing. And I always make a point, made a point to try and find something unique about those people, right. So there was all kinds of things that you can find out on LinkedIn that people want you to know about. Then I feel like it does, it is meaningful in a way that you mention things that they put out there, right? They put it out there on purpose. They want people to know that about themselves. So it's always been helpful in my opinion. She reach out and she mentioned something unique about their profile, right. So usually you see IP lawyers, you usually see that they have a medical, health or engineering background. But then when I found a few of the lawyers that were working with IP and they had a social sciences background, I, I kind of pointed that out. I was like, I'm that's so exciting. So happy to hear about your perspective. So I think I always try to find something that was interesting that they had put out there publicly. And I thought that that was helpful because it was a good conversation starter to so I would go to the coffee chat, you know, just exchange greetings, tell them a little bit about the project about myself and especially get you here about them, right. So I always tried to prepare a couple of questions, not in every coffee chat. I used the questions I prepared, but I just didn't want to be kind of caught off guard. And something that I learned with the the big number that maybe I wouldn't notice if I was just talking to 10 people is that knowing any life relationship, sometimes there's chemistry and sometimes there's just not. Sometimes I don't know, people are busy. They just have something else on their mind and it just doesn't go great. Not every coffee chat will go great. That's what I learned about it. You know, a lot of people are very. They just have a very different personality. They just are very much on task, right? And they're like, what do you wanna know? And very directed their questions. They don't, they don't enjoy maybe just chatting about trivialities and all of that. So it was, it was definitely a learning experience about humans in general. But then in the profession, he taught me a lot that people, they value that other people take the time to take a look at their profile and make thoughtful questions that could look like, for example, as I mentioned, the thing about IP law, right, I usually notice that IP lawyers have an engineering or, or health background. I notice that you have a social sciences 1. Can you tell me a little bit about how did you navigate that? Is it common like most of your colleagues do have that or is this just a misconception that I'm having? And then when I went and talked with lawyers that clerked for judges, for example, I mentioned to them that I wanted you to transactional work. And when I came to Canada and mentioned that I had clerked, people were like, wait, that's not usually how it goes. Usually people who clerk are going into litigation. So it was just very interesting to see the different things that the career does here and that it does in in other countries. But trying to relate to people trying to explain my experience. That was all part of what made it meaningful. And then I feel like, of course, part of it was being lucky that the lawyers that agreed should be a part of these. They were just open and and just easy going about it. And I think that that's what you find most of the time in my small pool of of people that I interviewed, that's what I found. They wanted to be connected to the faculty, Sue, and they felt like they were giving back to the community when they were chatting with. Me, I think people listening might smell first of all, 80 or whatever 82 you ended up with is not a small pool. It is quite a large number of people to interview over the course of what has essentially been gosh like 8 months. So that's 10 people a month. So I'm sure there's, if we were to spread them all out, which we obviously you did not. But you know, people might wonder how did you decide who to reach out to? How did you take it when you got no one responding? Yeah, I, I think people might not know where to start. So how did how did you start researching the individuals with whom you might meet? They're absolutely first of all, when I decided to, to use the number kind of, it felt off a little bit. You should like number people at first because I didn't want it to be like, you are lawyer #7 you are lawyer #10 you know, I definitely didn't want it to feel or especially for people to feel like they were just, I'm just doing this coffee chat because I want to check another number in my list, right? So I, I, I did everything within my power to make sure that I let them know that they weren't just, you know, somebody else that I was checking off my list. And that was important to me first. You should not see people as numbers. But as I went about to the selection of the individuals, there were a few different things. So I knew kind of what I wanted to get out of this experience, right? I wanted to talk with people in different fields. I wanted to make sure that I talked with, you know, a lot of people in private practice, a lot of people in public practice. I wanted to talk with people that went to other countries. I got to talk with lawyers that are working in Switzerland, that are working in Singapore and all were UFT trains. I also wanted to talk with lawyers from different generations. I didn't want to talk only with 2024 graduates, which were super open, but I also wanted to see how how far back could I go. Definitely all of these criteria helped me to to take a look at the right and LinkedIn was mostly what I used. I used the UFT lock connect as well because then that also added a layer of people willing to talk. And then LinkedIn helped me to filter out a lot of that because a lot of people have their graduation dates and you can filter out through that. So that was also helpful. It felt like the farther away people have graduated, a little bit harder to reach out to them. But happily I was able to have a reasonable amount of people that graduated or before the 2000s, so I was just very happy with the the final results. But the earliest graduation date person that you spoke with? OK. Let me just tell you in a second it it's interesting because it was actually just a Sabella, the person that I spoke to that has the earliest graduation date and I just have to just check here really quickly when that was. She is one of the most highly respected individuals in Canada for the work that she's done as a woman leading the in the judiciary space. And I'm sure there's people as you're searching and buying you a little time, but I think it might be interesting for people to note that when people say yes, lawyers are willing to talk to you, adjust this with, you know, she, she actually would sit down and speak with you for, you know what, half an hour. And it is absolutely generous, of course, but they really do value the opportunity to meet with people who are coming into the practice of law and want to talk to you, want to provide advice because so many of these individuals are there to serve community. And so I think for those listening, it's it's a really important lesson that yes, actually, they many will say yes. And as Claudio is also quite well outlined, making it personal, indicating why you're doing this, showing that you've done some thoughtful research on the individual helps the yes come faster. All right, so did you find the date? I have actually, yes. So she's from the graduating class of 1970. So she's graduated 55 years ago. And that's, it was just incredible for me to, to see, you know, the impact that she's done in all these years and to understand a little better of what, what a big, what a big leap it was to study at UFT back then to from what I've been seeing more and more. There's, there's a rich history of what legal education looked like and how much university and Law Society were very aligned. And then we have UFT law coming up as, as a very different proposal and a very different idea to the community. So it's definitely a school that has that story of being, you know, groundbreaker. And, and I think that from what I've heard a little bit, there was even the first few graduating classes, they were not even sure if they would be recognized or not. So there there's so much to the story and it's just awesome to to get to hear a little bit more about it, understand it and see the impact that so many alumni have been doing all through the years. Absolutely. Speaking the impact, what impact has this project had on you? Wow. In so many ways, in so many things, I feel like it definitely has. It has given me some clarity of things that I had a vague idea of. But hearing people saying it over and over again definitely gave me a lot of more of an understanding of what the community thinks in a way. So there was a lot of things about, you know, hard skills and soft skills, but oftentimes I heard the words of, you know, keep an open mind. A lot, a lot of the graduates ended up getting somewhere that they had no idea where they were going to go. A few people had a very specific going mind and they were like, I'm going to do this. One example, there was a graduate who who is a university president and he went to law school knowing he wanted to do this and he did it. And and it was just incredible to see that, to see, you know, the both ways are possible. People who were not sure they went to, you know, Bay Streets, did their time there, didn't love it, went somewhere else and and just found passion for law over again. So it was just incredible to see, you know, all the different things you can do with a law degree. I spoke with, you know, a reasonable amount of lawyers that are no longer practicing lawyers and that are in other areas be, you know, public policy, international organizations. So it's just, it was just very, very interesting in that way and, and it shaped the way I see the graduates. I'm looking around my colleagues now and just super curious, you know, what's going to happen, you know, 5-10 years from now because it's just a lot of impact can be done in a short amount of time these days. Absolutely. And I think one of the things that maybe is implicit in sort of the project and possibly the impact for you is the fact that you now have 80 plus new connections you wouldn't have had if you hadn't done the project. But also if you situate that within the program itself and the closeness with which you have built relationships, friendships with, you know, your colleagues in the class, they have their own connections. And so together, you have a strong fabric of individuals with whom you may be able to speak, you share contacts and knowledge. And that is really one of the most sort of the fundamental aspects of networking is that together, when you have those connections, you can get more information, thoughtful insights, different perspectives, and that you can share that sort of sense of community with many, many other people. And so I think that may be inherent in that is the fact that you are much more closely connected to people in the practice of law than you ever have been before, but also that you are available to build those connections with other people too, and they with you. So I think that that's an exciting outcome as well. Has been, and it led, you know, to new speakers at the podcast. He led to people that weren't connected to the university that we still chatted and we, we said, Hey, let's have a podcast in the future because I'd love to, you know, get to hear more about that there. It was incredible to me that people were reaching out about it. Something that was interesting too, is that when I, when I shared these two initiatives that I have one being the podcast and separately, the 75 lawyer project. It's hard for, you know, for everybody to, you know, come and know all about my life, right? So it happened that a lot of people were like, Oh, so we are recording a podcast and I'm like, OK, let me just try to explain this again, right? I have these two different projects that I work on, like 75 project lawyer is not a podcast and we're just getting done with that. And the podcast is just something that I do for fun and that I have been doing for a couple of years now. But it was just interesting also to see how in a way your, your image gets, you know, attached to all these things. And then I just had to unroll it a little bit and say like, OK, so box day, box B, box C kind of go over all of that. But it was just just being quite quite an incredible experience. And I feel like that's one of the big like untangles of going to law school, going through this route for licensing is that you get to meet a lot more people because it can be a very lonely Rd. if you're just challenging the exams. And I'm glad there's more and more communities and organizations that are helping out with that. But honestly, belonging to a community, having colleagues that are going through the same process and then getting to reach to all these people that have gone through, you know, their law school experience, their bar exams, and they are in practice for so many years. It's just a very, very interesting. And especially to see that, you know, it's possible that, you know, different ways will work out in the end, just gives a lot of a lot of hope, excitement and, and even meaning. As you know, older graduates are now talking about, you know, the legacy they want to give or how much they want to give back to the university and how much they feel like it changed their life completely. There's a few of the graduates that I spoke to that are working fewer at the law school with, you know, alumni relations now and the alumni board. I forgot the the specific name of the association, but it's just very interesting to see these people that have graduated 3040 years ago and that are coming back and that they feel that they are very much connected to the university and they want to give back and mentor the next generation. Shoot. Absolutely. And I think that's probably a beautiful sort of pause. You know, I, I think hopefully people who are listening in are, are realizing just how interconnected and how important networking is, not because of the job, you know, that is of course going to be part of it. But I think the larger point is, is that people want to feel connected, they care, they want to leave a legacy, they want to make a positive impact. And your invitation to do so, I think has made you know it's 80 plus people feel more connected with each other and you and the university because you genuinely wanted to meet with them. So I wanted to just congratulate you on what has been a remarkable project and I know it will unfold and unfurl and really interesting ways over the years. Ahead, I'm just very happy to have, you know, the support of the university in many ways to have all the, all the team following up with me and seeing how is it going, saying how is it going when we, when we, you know, crossed paths in the corridors, going to class and all of that. And it really wouldn't be possible without being a part of this community. So I'm just very thankful for for this time that I have had the opportunity to be at UF, you know, to get to know you Erica personally, to get to know, you know, the, the other members of the team. But it's just being an incredible experience. And I've noticed more and more the importance of having some kind of, you know, personal project or something that you get to, you know, experience on. And, and a lot of people did that through undergrad and, and all of that. But it was just a great opportunity for me to get, you know, more people, but also to get to do something and, and remind myself that I can do hard things and I can start and finish projects and just, you know, just that kind of experience really. Yeah, that's excellent advice, Excellent advice, Claudia. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me once again, Erica. It's it's much appreciated. And I don't know if I want you to come back because I keep thinking that if you come back here, it probably means that the program is over. That may have to happen. I mean, you know, if you want to come back for another program, you let us know. You know, we, we also know that success means that in, you know, the, the autumn, you will be wearing your graduation towns along with your classmates, walking out of Convocation Hall onto front campus, celebrating this moment of accomplishment. And we, we take such great joy in watching you all work hard, go through the lumps and bumps of the program and to flourish in the ways that you all uniquely are flourishing. So yeah, I know we should have another conversation before we go, but I think for today we'll we'll just say let's keep talking sometimes. There you go, there you go. For sure we will. Thank you so much for joining. Once again, thank you all for tuning into this episode and we'll talk soon.