Law School, Leadership, and Lifelong Learning with Gina Alexandris

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today I have the honor to welcome Gina Alexandris to join us and to share a little bit about her personal journey in law and to share with us also about the work that she does these days helping internationally trained lawyers and lawyers in general with clarity in their careers. Thank you so much for joining us today, Gina. It is such a pleasure to be here, Claudio. Thank you for having. Me thank you for joining us and choose start our meeting today, our podcast. I'd love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners. Would you be able to tell us about yourself and your career? Absolutely. I start off by saying two things. One is that my childhood as a child of immigrant parents has impacted me in ways that I don't think I appreciated when I was growing up and as I was even a young adult. And the second thing is that I have had opportunities that did not exist when I was in law school and when I graduated from law school. And so I always remind people that first of all, to think about what is important to you and second of all, to understand that there are pathways ahead of you that you may not realize. So with that in mind, want to start off wanting to be a teacher, but then because of a circumstance that happened to my parents with a legal matter, I realized that they didn't have access to a lot of legal representation and I switched from wanting to go into teaching to wanting to go into law. As a result, went to law school, graduated and worked in a small Toronto firm practicing civil and family litigation and enjoyed a lot of elements of it over a period of about four years. But as I'll discuss later on, something else kept drawing me. And remember what I said about going back to sort of things that are of importance to you. Through a variety of ways, I found my way to a new role that was opening up at Osgoode Hall Law School to start the career development office. And it seemed to be the right place at the right time in the right opportunity and took that role, not having a clue what it meant to be part of a career development office because at that time we didn't have them in Canadian law schools. Worked there and really found a great fit for me and worked there for about 3 years before the opportunity to become assistant Dean of the law school came up. And I remember Claudia and I use this example for many thinking, I'm not ready for this. This is, this is a leap role or a stretch role. How can I possibly even think about it at this stage? It's too soon. But then a little voice in me said, yeah, but the next person who does it might be there for a long while. You might lose this opportunity. Why not try? And so with that and a lot of support and encouragement from people that I knew and loved and trusted, I put my hand in for that and got the role. And, and I was the person who kept the role for the next 9 years and it was a fabulous opportunity to engage with the legal community, students, faculty in ways that I had not even anticipated before. And Fast forward a total of 12 years at Osgood, the University of Toronto Faculty of Law had gotten funding from the province to start something called the Internationally Trained Lawyers program. We had a few ITL's who were coming in through the NCAA applicant process at Osgood, but there were very few other resources at the time for internationally trained lawyers. And again, change is hard. Going to the competing law school, quote UN quote, even though we had a lot of collaboration was hard. Osgood had been my alma mater, but I decided let me try it. Let me do it went to the ITL the and started the internationally trained lawyers program with a group of phenomenal colleagues and really started seeing what the world of ITL's is like. And as I go back to as a kid of immigrants, many experiences that they were facing were still very similar, although there were some that were very different. Was really, really happy to be part of that world and to understand to be able to offer things to Itls that had not been available, including community before. And what I saw from that point was that a number of different programs started coming up after that at EU of T at Osgood across Canada, programs that were formal programs, informal programs. And it was that voice was starting to get louder and I was really, really happy about that. Somewhere along the lines in about 3 or 4 years that I was at the ILP, the Ministry of the Attorney General came calling and said we need somebody to do some of our strategy and professional development for our lawyers. Would you come? And I thought, this is a group public service that I had not worked with before and I knew what private practice was like. I wanted to do that. I made this shift and did it and was really blessed to meet a number of bright, talented giving individuals and discovered what the OS, the Ontario Public Service has to offer for lawyers that I hadn't appreciated before. But then Fast forward the opportunity to start yet another program at the third university in Toronto, Van Ryerson, now TM U came up. They had gotten the approval to launch the English version of the law practice program and that that pull to start something new to support people who otherwise we're finding challenges just was too, too strong. Made the leap and spent about close to 9 years with the university with the law practice program and also starting and helping to develop the their new law school, which was a phenomenal experience. So again, if you had asked me at graduation, what would I be doing? I would have told you civil and family litigation forever and ever never even because each of those worlds that I mentioned were brand new did not even exist. And and then I had while at UFT, I had started my coach training and it was time about 2 1/2 years ago for me to pursue that full time and made the difficult but easy decision to again switch and move into the entrepreneurial role which I'm in now, which is supporting lawyers and law students and other professionals as they navigate leadership transitions, changes generally and watch their successes. So that's in a nutshell. That's amazing. I feel like not not a lot of professionals have had the exposure you had to this whole world of internationally trained lawyers, programming development and the legal field itself. So it's just fantastic to hear about your story. And, and I feel like there is a common thread connecting all of these career choices. I think I mentioned it before in a few podcasts and there's this graduation speech by Steve Jobs where he talks about connecting the dots when you look backward and all of that. And I, I'd love to know, you know, after holding such like a wide range of roles across leadership, law, education, what would you say that connects these points in your career over the years? It's interesting because believe it or not, this was when I was thinking about leaving law or not figure not sure what I wanted to do while I was in practice. Something felt off but I wasn't quite sure I could identify what it was and I went to a then career psychologist. We didn't have coaches necessarily that time and one of the first her sizes she asked me to do was do a quote UN quote life map to see sort of what were the highs and the lows and you sort of that I experienced up until that point and to help connect the dots. So that exercise is a phenomenal exercise for all of us to do a different stages. The first one certainly came up at that time and has been consistent and that's the idea of personal and professional development growth. My father was an individual who had a grade 3 education and yet really craved and really encouraged learning. And I think I've taken that on in ways that I had not not necessarily appreciated, but my own and others. Personal and professional development is something that is a critical theme and a critical dot throughout all of the roles that I've had and personally. But what I've discovered, and this is this I think I discovered during my coach training, the second theme or the second connecting the dot is celebration and celebrating people's journeys. Remind people of the celebrations as you're doing with a lot of people and for people who aren't even in the profession yet. Being able to hold the mirror and spotlight and celebrate others has been what I enjoy doing. My favorite part of my role at at Osgood and at the ITLP and the LP were the convocations at Osgood and the calls to the bar ceremony. I had the benefit and the privilege of being on stage for the calls to the bar ceremony. Those moments, those hours, those celebrations sort of just highlight for me being able to say you've got this, you've got this milestone, there's more to go, but you'll be celebrated then as well. And even being there in my coaching practice for the celebration Solar Large that clients find themselves a new job, a new understanding, a new philosophy, a change that they were looking forward to. I think it's important for each of us to be able to do it individually, but then to have somebody champion us and that way I think is also important and I enjoy that role. So the professional and personal development and the celebration or championing of of peoples successes I think are the 2 common links in everything that I have done today. How has your idea of career success changed overtime? I think think Claudio, that one of the biggest ways it's changed for me is taking it more from an in, from an outward reflection. What do other people want me to do? What do other people think I'm good at? What do other people define the success? How do other people view success to more of an inward reflection and how do I define success? What do I want? What does it look like to me? And understanding and appreciating success looks so different for every for each and every person. And to appreciate and to celebrate our own definition of success. I can tell you that the pull towards other people's goals and other people's definitions is so very strong, especially in a profession like law. It starts almost from the first day of law school. See, it also starts from before we even get to law school. I think good intentions on, on our schools, I was part of this whole process where we want to see people see themselves in leadership roles, But there's many ways of defining leadership. There's many ways of defining successes. And I think when you're able to sift through the noise and when you're able to actually think through what it is that you really want, what's important to you, you can define success in the way that you want to. And so I think that that shift for me more and it came and I'll tell you this, I hadn't really made the connection until just now when I was transitioning from the practice of law to my new job at Osgood, which again, nobody knew what a career development was or a career development, Sir. I had no clue how to explain it to people. Yet there was something there that was telling me, it's in law, it's in legal education, it's helping people. And it felt right at the time. But I remember my biggest you've seen, and I'm sure others who might be watching know how close I was to my parents and how remarkably impactful they were. I remember being really nervous and ambivalent of telling my father that I was not going to be a lawyer anymore. That identity that people have. It's easy to define what a lawyer is. And I still remember the time when I was telling him and, and nervous that he'd be disappointed, upset, fill in whatever word that that might be applicable for you, because I had his definition. You know, the successful lawyer, the successful advocate, the, the, you know, the daughter who went on to, to go to law school that when nobody else had my dad was very practical man. And I remember telling him very nervous and he, his response, he looked at me and he said, are you going to be happy? And I said, he had daddy. Actually, I think I will. And he said, good, I'm very glad. Then do what you do really well and be happy with it and I'll be very happy for you. And all of a sudden, I thought this man's definition of success is not what I had thought it was. It was a very different success definition. And it allowed me then to free myself from outside definitions and start really thinking about what my own definition. Was that's fantastic. It's always inspiring to hear that and to have that family support. I, you know, at times people have asked how, how do you keep up with doing the LM and, and you know, keeping this side projects, doing a podcast, part time work and this and that. And honestly, without that family help it, it wouldn't be the case for me. So I feel very, very privileged to, to have that support. And it's amazing to hear how you've got your experience that you and thinking about your trajectory and the things that you shared so far. You've worked closely with a lot of internationally trained lawyers for many years. And I was wondering what are some of the most common challenges that you would see they facing when entering the the legal market? And also, if I may ask, adding to that question, how have you seen it changing overtime from when you started to what you see with your clients now? Really great question. And I as you know, just before we have taped this, I have sort of been immersed in ITL's, the ITL conference in Calgary next year they're planning on having it here in Toronto. So just a word of encouragement to Itls to think about joining next year. That thought really came up for me that your second thought, especially in terms of what's changed and what's still the same, because there's a lot that's still the same, but there have been changes. And in terms of access to information, I'll say the following. There used to be few resources and few points of information, and now there is so much and, and on the one hand, I am so glad that there are more resources available for Itls. What I'm hearing though, is that people are so overwhelmed with data and information. Sometimes they just don't know how to start and how to access it. So while it's there, it's the challenge of accessing it. So the growth of data and information is really wonderful. Let's talk about the elephant in the room. There's still stigma about Itls, although it's lessened with more and more Itls speaking and supporting one another with more champions of ITL's being vocal, the stigma has lessened, but it's still there. And, and I think being able to A, understand that it's there and B, work towards and find your supports to be able to overcome that I think is really, really critical. You mentioned the networks and community support or family support. So while you and I may have talked about families, one of the challenges for a lot of Itls is that they don't have. And I don't know how many people I've spoken to who have said I've got to do everything on my own because I don't have family around. I don't have, many times I don't have even friends. They've come completely not knowing anybody around. And that lack of personal and let alone professional networks or relationships or communities is really challenging. And what I found is these groups. So the change is that these groups, whether it's the ITL network, whether it's an LLM, these groups allow people to have the community that I felt was so important when we started the ITLP at the University of Toronto. It's that community of other people who are in the same boat and get you understand that you're juggling immigration challenges with figuring out your next job, with getting that that training that you need with looking for daycare for your child. We had new babies born in each of the programs and then individuals who were trying to juggle new parenthood with all of that. It's the figuring out how to cope with illness with people back home who you're so far from and yet so dearly love. So community building here I think is really a challenge, but also something that I've seen change. And one thing that I will say continues to be a challenge and always has been is access to that very first job. I think the other elements, the access to information, the stigma, the community, all help with access to that first legal job. But that continues to be throughout the conference, throughout people. When I have conversations with people, that tends to be one of the first challenges. I see fantastic. And and it seems like for that, for that first opportunity, that's the one that hasn't changed a whole lot then through the years. Very interesting. So you've talked about, you know, building careers with purpose and all of that and mentioned now this is struggles. So what are some ways that internationally trained lawyers can stay focused on their purpose when they're navigating so many transitions? And I say that thinking about where there's so much to consider here, but at times we, we and, and I catch myself talking about this with colleagues as well, where at this point, many people have a bit more clarity in their careers. They've gone through know the undergrad, many of us did have some legal experience before starting this career here in Canada. And then it seems like maybe an area of law is really open to receiving people and that you can more easily find an articling position in that area of law. But you know, you, you really don't, you know, match that area. And then what do you do? Do you just, you know, take it so that you can get license or, you know, so, so there's so many reflections to make about that. And I'd love to pick your brain a little bit and hear your thoughts on that. Claudia, you've you've hit on sort of a constant conversation that I have with ITL's the balancing act, right? That has to take place, but also when you use the word, and I'm so glad that you did the reflection and the self reflection that we need to be doing regularly. And, and you know, sometimes people will say to me, I have no time to self reflect or I have no time to, or energy to have the privilege of thinking through what I want. I just need to get things done. I need to get a job. I need to put food on the table. And, and I always ask them just to pause because it's so really important. I realize that there's a privilege in being able to self reflect, but I think there's a danger if you don't take that time and energy and space to allow yourself to think about what's really important to you. And it could be that what's really important to you at this time maybe a little bit different than what was important to you five years ago or two years ago, and what might be important to you six or seven years down the road, for that matter. So thinking about what's important to you at this very time is critical. And typically some of those values, some of those priorities will be the same regardless of circumstances around us. So if you think, for example, that time spent with family is important, or if you think that being a subject expert in a particular, just being a subject expert is important. Or if you have a particular interest in and enthusiasm for a particular area of law, intellectual property or family law. Or if you think that right now priority is money and you need financial stability because that's been something that you are craving and have not been able to establish. Each of those is a legitimate goal to have. Each of those is illegitimate value to have. Again, it goes back to the inward versus the outward. Don't second guess yourself on what your classmate is doing or what Claudio is saying he's doing or what Gina is saying she's doing. Thinking about what's important to you at any given time is really, really important. And you know, many people say, well, you know, our parents or whoever other immigrants were thinking about didn't have the luxury of thinking about these things. And I say, I bet you they did. They just didn't formalize it or just didn't think about doing it. But I'm sure that when they were looking for a first job, they may have been thinking right now I don't have the luxury of financial stability. I need that or right now I do. My circumstances are such. Let me think about what I can look at. So self reflection, I think on your values is important. What matters to you most in any particular given time, speak to someone about it, a good friend, a trusted colleague, a coach, an instructor. People appear that you're meeting, but don't necessarily just go with what they say. Speak about it to get information, to hear your own thoughts out loud. Because when we speak about things in our head, Claudio, it's a jumble. Sometimes we have to speak it through and speak it out. And I always say to other things, maybe give yourself a visual reminder. If family is a priority, put a screenshot of family on your phone. If excitement or travel or journey is is important or priority, have a picture on your on your screen somewhere to remind you of what that is if calm and stability. Or financial success is what is motivating you right now. Again, what's that visual reminder? I also, and I don't know if you've ever done this. I can't remember in any of your posts. I've seen this and if, if, if you have, my apologies. I sometimes get clients dues and I used to get our students to do this. Do a letter to your future self reminding you in the future what is important to you right now. And whether with wonder of technology, you can post market for six months down the road for a year down the road for three months down there for three years down the road. You can use the you know, e-mail send function to you. Hopefully you won't change emails or you'll look at the e-mail. You know, that will be a letter to yourself and a reminder of what's important to yourself. I think being able to talk through those issues on a regular basis with somebody that you trust and believe in, but also just to remind yourself of what's important today helps when you're making decisions. And one of the exercises that I do with my coaching clients is we go through this values exercise where we talk through it. And then as during our coaching engagement, as opportunities come up, I always bring that back to people and say, remember when we had this value exercise? How does this particular job opportunity align with what's important? And then we have to make decisions. We're adults. And so sometimes if it aligns with eight out of ten of our values, great. Sometimes we have to make decisions that even if right now this opportunity might not align with the majority of our values, we need to take it for other reasons. We're making an informed decision. And I think that's really critical. I'll give you a brief example. And again, it hadn't really, they hadn't connected it until we had this conversation when I was assistant Dean and I'd, I'd oftentimes get first year students or even sometimes second year students come in to me, especially first year students in the first few months who would be questioning their choice of coming to law school. Why did I decide to do it? I can't do it. I'm, I'm stuck. I'm not sure it's what I really want. And we had paper files in the early days. I would go back and pull out their admission letter or their application, their personal statement and their application. And without them knowing what I was doing, I would actually read out a portion of their personal statement. And so they were hearing out loud what they wrote anywhere from one to two or three years earlier about why they wanted to go to law school. And I don't know how many times I'd get stunned looks with who was that person. Well, yeah, I forgot that that's what I want to do. And then a conversation would start. I still really wanna do that or, you know, that was what I wanted them. But I think I've changed, and this is what I want to do. But it sort of reminded people of what was in their head at some point, and then they could think through why this was important at this point. That's incredible. What a privilege for those that got the chance to, to have that done for them. That's so amazing. Going forward. Here is our conversation and wow, so many good reflections you're bringing. Thank you so much. What kind of advice would you give then to internationally trained lawyers who are trying to to balance these ideas of meeting the licensing requirements in trying to build a community in a network here in Canada that will, you know, give that that support that you just mentioned that sometimes we have with family, we have with friends, and then, you know, juggling all of these things at the same time. And then also, I guess that network may also, you know, open job opportunities. So there's so much involved in the whole, you know, system of different stakeholders involved. There is so much. And this past weekend, the person who was being the MC for the conference was an Ontario IIT L who actually knew from the law practice program. But he was using a phrase when people would, when he would be thanking speakers or panelists or keynotes or whatnot. And he was using a phrase that I hadn't really heard before. And as given what I said earlier, it really resonated with me. But instead of saying, you know, let's give them a round of applause, which is sort of the typical thing, or let's, you know, let's thank our guests or our speakers or panelists, He would say, let's, let's celebrate them. Let's join me in celebrating them. And I want to do the same for you because I think what you are asking and what you are doing for the ITL community really is an incredible opportunity. And, and I want to celebrate you and I want to celebrate all Itls who may be listening. And I want to celebrate all of the profession who is giving, who are giving Itls that chance. And so that in terms of the community building that you're asking me about, two things come up in particular. One is to remember that this process, as much as you want to get through it, as much as you want to run through it and finish because you've got to tick off everything on your checklist, right? We all have this mental checklist done, done, done, done or still in progress. Just remember, it's a marathon. It's a marathon, not a Sprint. It is a long journey and it can take you longer than you had anticipated, and that's OK. It's not a Sprint. Don't try and rush through it. You're going to miss so much if you try and rush through it. And the other part that I will say, which sort of takes that into account is include relationship building as part of that process. When you think about, OK, first the accreditation process, then the NCA process, I mean, then the licensing process and as part of the licensing process, exams or articling, then that first job after that. And then of course, we compartmentalize all the other things that we have to do in our life. Personally perhaps. And my comment on that is think about it all as one big journey, one big part of your journey. And if we think about networking or community building or relationship building as a separate, it's going to overwhelm us. Even with current lawyers who are thinking about business development, I have to get across to them and their mindset has to change that. In fact, business development is just a part of the job. When they think about the practice of law and I have to build a portfolio or I have to build a client list, when they think about it as separate, they're not going to give it the attention they need. When we see it as all part of the same process, there's more likelihood that we're going to do it. So dedicate. I often say, use it as one of your files. If you're in the process and you're going through exams or the LLM, think about the relationship building as one of your courses. It's one of not a separate thing. It's a part of and make the time. Just as you're scheduling your research or your class time, schedule it. Put it in your calendar where you devote and you can determine what's important and what's so, how much time you can do for it. Doing some research about people you wanna meet, sending out those emails, having the coffee chats, following up with them afterwards, attending events. Actually allot yourself a time. And I know people are gonna say, Gina, I've got 24 hours in a day. I need to sleep, I need to eat, I have my children or my part time job. And my comment is it doesn't have to be a lot at that stage. Can it be half an hour? What's the best use of that half hour? But actually have half an hour. We brush our teeth, we we put on clothes, we sometimes cook, we take time to eat. Hopefully we take time to eat and we do take time to sleep. If we can think about this as as one of those elements of our life that and I find relationship building is just sort of a now woven into what I do part of what I really enjoy. But it wasn't how I started off thinking about this. It was that extra thing I had to do. And if you tell me I have to do something, I don't really necessarily wanna do it, but when it becomes something that is part of and actually quite beneficial, I think it's helpful. And the only other thing that I'll say on that is it's helpful when you're doing it in a way that is authentic and meaningful to you. So, you know, I started off by public speaking and teaching and that was given what I, what was important to me, that was that made it easier. I like people and I like celebrating other people. So attending events is OK. I know some people don't like doing that. So find the best way possible for you, but spend time actually dedicating to doing it. And you said, I think you used the word genuine part, right? And it's so true. If you're not genuine, if you're not coming across as genuine, it will be harmful to you and harmful to not harmful, just not enjoyable for the other person. It's not about getting a job, Claudio, right? You've probably heard this before. It's really about learning about others, sharing about yourself, building relationships and doing it in a way that feels really, I was gonna say that feels really natural, understanding that sometimes we do have to put ourselves up in those uncomfortable situations. Bring a buddy to an event. If you don't like going by yourself, do some research beforehand about who's going to be there. So there's somebody that's somehow shares a connection that you do, the school that you enter the area of practice. Maybe they talk about having a dog, maybe they talk about liking to travel and and then use that as sort of an entry to speak to somebody. So don't treat it as a separate task. Really think about it as interwoven professional. I'd say part of being a human is being part of the community and take the long road and think about the marathon that you're on, not just the I gotta get this done to cross it off my list. That's amazing. Thank you. So. Much for all of that and to continue this reflection and to those that would like to get to learn more about your services and what kind of contact they could have with you, do you know, would you tell us a little more about the services you provide as a career coach and also how people could reach out to you? Absolutely. So what? I've done since going sort of out on my own is maintain two different elements of my career coaching and consulting role. On the one hand are my one-on-one coaching sessions with individuals and I'll I'll come to that in a second. But I also very much stay involved with organizations and doing either keynotes or workshops or projects with them. So whether it's the hidden gems project for the Law Society or whether I do workshops for certain organizations, firms or the civility project that I would encourage all Itls take a look at from the Toronto Lawyers Association. Those are sort of things that people can access as resources or attend as participants. The one-on-one coaching. And again, I love both. I get energy from the group material and the projects, and I also get energy from the one-on-one engagement. When you sit down with one person, drill down in terms of what's really important to them and work through a plan, Two things, a plan to how to get to that and a plan on first of all, what it is and then how to get to that. And, and then working through some of the challenges. And oftentimes what we're doing, our mock mock interviews, mock coffee chats, we're doing mock difficult conversations sometimes, like if you're in a particular role and you've got a challenging supervisor, a challenging colleague, a challenging client, let's talk through the conversations that you might have with them and how to better prepare yourself for it. So everything from the resumes and interviews, even before we get there, what's important to you, the values and working through a process. I'm starting to also talk to more senior lawyers who are into the next transition, which is whatever they want to call that, that retirement or that next phase or the reduction. And that's sort of a new area that I've started to engage with with lawyers about as well. I TL's and and locally trained lawyers as well. How can you reach me? There's probably three ways. One is through my website. I have a contact me there. Gina alexanders.com, my YouTube channel has a number of things. One a couple of years ago, I started a book club, career conversations book club and there's some fabulous authors with some fabulous books that they've written and we have, you know, one hour conversations with them. And if you're an IT L who is already in practice or if you're not, but the Itls were in practice, each of those sessions is worth CPD hours for the LSO. So you can free resource to be able to mark off your CBD hours and learn something and have some fun conversations. And I also have a particular on that YouTube channel, which is Gina Alexander's career coach. If you type that in, or if you search Gina Alexander's career coach on YouTube, you'll be able to find me. There's a, there are a couple of sessions for ITL's. One is learning the legal landscape. Another is about your resume and cover letter. So there's some free resources there. And as you very well know, I'm very regularly on LinkedIn. I think it's an exceptional platform for us to build those networks. One of the things that was so gratifying over the last couple of days at this concert, part of me at this conference was meeting people who I knew virtually through LinkedIn. One person, a professor at Ucalgary getting Christian who I, who I knew from from LinkedIn for the past, I don't know, 10 years or so, we've never met in person. And it was such a such a wonderful opportunity to meet in person. I'm on LinkedIn and I do hope people reach out and connect. Those are sort of the three primary ways right now in doing so amazing and for. Those of you listening to this episode, you just look at the show descriptions down below and you'll see all of these links. I'm sure they are there. And thank you all so much. Thank you enough for sharing these wonderful ideas, advice and reflections with us today. And thank you all for taking the time to listen to today's episode and we'll see you on the next one. Thank you, Claudia. All the best. Bye, bye now.