Podcasting during Articling with Herman Wong

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. In today's episode, we'll have the honor to interview Herman Wong. He will be sharing with us a little bit of his experience podcasting through his articling, and also how that idea came about, some about his extracurricular activities, and how podcasting has been an interesting experience through his law journey. So please help me and welcome Herman Wong. Thank you so much for joining us today. Yay. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Awesome. Well, Herman, if you don't mind, would you please share with us a little bit about who you are? I know that you're an Osgoode graduate and then recently you finished your articling. Could you share with us and with our listeners who you are? Sure. So, I mean, thank you so much again for having me on the show. Before I went to law school, I went to journalism school. So I went to Carleton University in Ottawa, Ontario. And that was a fabulous experience. And I also got to study French at the same time, 2 kind of separate degrees, but I was able to do both at the same time, which I really appreciated. But when I was doing journalism school, I always knew I wanted to go to law school. And I love journalism because I got to practice my reading and writing skills and, you know, now producing skills with podcasts and video editing. But it was a really good experience and really did prepare me to law school because law school is a lot about writing and reading again, synthesizing information into, easy-to-read writing styles and all that kind of stuff. But throughout my journey throughout law school and both journalism school, I always knew that I wanted to kind of combine both of my backgrounds into something that I could do for fun, not necessarily as my main career, but something that I could do on the side. So even throughout law school, I was thinking about, how can I combine my 2 backgrounds into something that I can produce? And it wasn't until my 3rd year of law school, near the end of it, where I was like, oh, maybe I should do a podcast because Podcasts were on the rise. There's so many amazing podcasts out there, like the one that you have right now. So I thought maybe I'd just jump on the bandwagon and create something that was fun and easy to listen to. And that was kind of on the back of my mind throughout the end of law school. And then of course I did my articling at Torkin Manes, a fabulous law firm, and I was able to learn so much during that time. But I also wanted to do something kind of like on the weekends where I could just kind of sit back and do something fun. And when I was thinking about the podcast, Originally, I wanted to do it by myself. I was thinking of like, oh, what, what kind of topics should I cover? Or what kind of guests should I have on? And originally when I was thinking of the show, I actually wanted it to be an extremely casual show. Like I wanted it to sound the most, the least like a lecture as possible. Mm-hmm. But I guess throughout my law school year, I was kind of thinking, well, I don't know how I would arrange this. How would I produce this? You know, where would I release it on? What kind of guests would I ask to be on the show? And it wasn't until later on, I think maybe around my beginning of articling, where I was like, oh my goodness, like I worked with the Ontario Justice Education Network before as a volunteer, and their mandate was so almost identical to what I wanted to do with this show. So at the beginning of my articling, I asked 3 people from OJEN, which is the Ontario Justice Education Network, to meet with me, and I kind of pitched them this show. And it was great. They were super receptive. And I was so happy because I thought that, wow, this could be a really good project to combine both of my backgrounds, you know, because I never really wanted to leave journalism behind, like, forever. I've always wanted to do something with it and combine it to do something fun. So that was just a little bit about beginnings of the podcast, and I guess I kind of went away from talking to you about who I am as a person. But I guess the main thing is that, you know, I've done both journalism and law school now, and I'll be coming back to work at Torkin Maynes as a litigation associate during this time. It's been an incredible time to produce this show as a fun little hobby on the side. That's incredible. I'm so happy to hear that. It's always fun to, you know, when you get the chance to find out something you love and kind of just enjoy doing it. Yeah, especially incredible. But since you mentioned a little bit of like how you got inspired to do the podcast and maybe some of our listeners who are, I guess, more international than Canadian at this point, they might not have heard about your podcast before. So could you please go ahead and tell us about like the name of it and how they can find it, which platforms you're currently streaming at? Yes, this is going to be my promotional part of the show. My podcast is called Law Syrup. And it is available honestly anywhere you can find podcasts. You can find it on YouTube under the Ontario Justice Education Network's channel. You can also find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. But the show is really meant to be an accessible way to kind of get to know a little bit about the law. It's not supposed to be a replacement for law school or any type of tutoring, but it's really meant to be a fun, casual conversation between me and other guests about big law topics. So when I was thinking about the show, I was like, if I was just a casual person with no knowledge about the law, what would be the things that I would want to know about our legal system in Canada? So I thought about, you know, the big ones like family law or criminal law or how to go to law school, things like that, which I kind of just wrote down on the side to kind of give me an idea of where I wanted to go with the show. But The show is only about, you know, 30 to 45 minutes usually. It starts off just with me introducing a guest and we just kind of go from there and I ask them questions. Sometimes they're more serious questions like, okay, well, tell me more about how this law has developed over the years. And other parts, it's very fun and casual where I just ask them about their lives and, you know, what kind of music or food they like. So it's a very big mix of things. And I think that kind of goes back to the title of the show, which is Lost Syrup. And I think when you first hear the title of the show, you're kind of like, ooh, what is this supposed to be? Is it supposed to be fun? Is it supposed to be serious? And I like that it's a mix of both because when I thought about the title of the show, I wanted it to sound both legal and Canadian. And being very stereotypical, I was like, maple syrup is very Canadian. Yeah. So somehow in my brain, I was like, whoa, what if I just called it Law Syrup or Legal Syrup? And I don't know. There was a little bit of a kick to it. It's only 3 syllables, Law Syrup. So when people think of the title, it's very easy remember. But I was also thinking about like how syrup, you know, you could think about things like cough syrup. It's medicine. It's good for you, but it goes down easy. I always like to say that. But it's true. You know, I'm giving these very broad, oftentimes complex legal subjects in the episode, but I'm saying it and presenting it in a way to people with the help of my guests in a way that's easy to understand no matter what age you are. So if you're a high school student or a senior citizen, You— my goal of the podcast is that you can listen to the show and understand everything without having to like Google something or, you know, use the dictionary to find out what a term we just used was. Like, hopefully on the show we'll be able to describe all that for you so that the listening process is as easy and also as fun as possible. Well, that was incredible. And seriously, I highly recommend it. The first time I heard it, it was when you hosted a justice from the Supreme Court. Yes. And it was just an incredible episode. I loved how Easily you carried the subjects and how you asked about her personal life and all of that. It was just so, so nice. So definitely everybody go give it a listen. And kind of going forward and building up on that, how did it go to manage, you know, having your podcast, your special project, your hobby, but also kind of juggling it with your duties that you had professionally? Was it easy to— it being somewhat easy to manage all of that together and having to schedule the time for the interviews and editing and all of that. How has the experience been for you? You know, it's been a very interesting process because I knew that when I was doing the show, I always still wanted to prioritize my articling. And the show is co-produced by OJEN, the Ontario Justice Education Network. And they've always told me that I should definitely prioritize my articling first. And it's like, all right, this is like a fun project, but make sure you don't put this over your articling right now with your firm. So I've always tried to keep that in mind as well. But Honestly, with the support of O*Gen, they've been so good to me. You know, they have so many incredible resources and kind people. One of the people I wanna shout out in particular is Jean-Paul Bevilacqua, who has always helped me through producing these shows and finding guests and everything. And he's always been like my lifeline in terms of making sure that the show is produced and that it turns out well. Of course, and other support people such as Kristi, who's, you know, the head of O*Gen right now, and Rara is our great tech person. And You know, in articling, your week is kind of unpredictable at times because when you get an assignment, it's kind of hard to kind of gauge how many you'll get during a week or how long they'll take, especially starting out. So when I was thinking about making the show in the beginning of the year, it's like I didn't know when I would launch it or how I would start the interviews or when I should start reaching out to people. And these were discussions I had with Oja and I was like, okay, well, when do you think releasing the episodes would be a good idea? How many do you think we should make? What kind of guests should we have on for the first season? And it was kind of a discussion we had. Like, I literally met the people from MoGen for a nice lunch at Sud Forno downtown near Yonge and Richmond, a fabulous Italian restaurant. And we literally just kind of spitballed ideas about what the show could be. And I think we kind of agreed that we wanted to put it out at a time when high school students would be able to listen to it because that was a very big target audience. Yes. So for example, we didn't want to put it out near Christmas time when people were away, but we also wanted to make sure that people have time to listen to it and digest it. Another big thing we wanted to talk about was how frequently to release an episode. So like, would we release every week, once a month? And right now we're doing it biweekly. But in terms of managing, in terms of articling, I mostly work on the podcast on the weekends. So even with interviews, I always try to schedule them on weekends or, you know, afternoons after 5 PM when generally I would be less busy after work. But apart from that, it's been quite an easy process because so many of our guests have been super amenable to time scheduling. Nice. And I'm super humbled because, you know, lawyers and other professionals are incredibly busy people. So to have them take an hour out of their day to speak with me and talk with me on an episode of the show, it's, it's really fun. And I'm really grateful for those experiences. And I'm happy to see how flexible they are with their schedules so that they can fit mine as well. And I also try to be accommodating too. But yeah, going back to your question, mostly I work on it on the weekends. And same thing goes with editing. I use Audacity to edit my show. I don't know what you use to edit your show, but Audacity is one of those free softwares you can just download to your computer and it has everything you need to kind of put it on. And I do think I am very lucky to have the support of Ogen with this show because there is a student there that helps me do all the transcriptions and Of course, there's another person, Raras, who helps me upload everything, including all the artwork and just making sure that everything is ready for launch. I don't have to do that part. So it's really helped me to find time to do my other things, such as articling. And of course, now during the summer, because I ended my articling at the end of May and I'm coming back in September, right now it's kind of nice to kind of see the podcast come to life and see all the episodes released one by one and see what the reaction is like. So yeah, that's— That's great. That's been kind of been how I managed it. And really without OJ's support, I think it would've been much more onerous of a task to put this out there into the world. But I was very lucky. So how fun is that? I'm just enjoying hearing all the details and how the, the whole process went for you. And I just realized, you know, I'm doing this season right now focused on Canada and Canadian law students and Canadian law school and the legal profession in the country. But up until now, our guests have just heard about studying law in Canada once before. So if I may ask you, could you just simply describe to our listeners what articling is? Because I feel like we've been speaking a lot about it, but I forgot to contextualize it. Right. So in Ontario, here in Canada, you know, you have to do 3 years of law school. And after you're done law school to become licensed, or as we call it, called to the bar, in Ontario at least, you also have to complete, um, at least 8 months of what we call articling. So articling is kind of like a doctor's residency before you become a doctor. And it's almost kind of like a co-op job where you work with a firm or a lawyer for at least 8 months and you kind of get all this experience, this genuine work experience, what it's like to be a lawyer before you become officially licensed as a lawyer. So in those 8 months, at least for me, you know, you get to work with a firm and you get to work on all different types of assignments, whether it's drafting or doing legal research or attending trials or mediations with a supervising lawyer. You get to do a lot of really fun stuff, and it's really a learning experience for you to kind of figure out also what you want to do with your life in terms of like, what kind of area of law do I find more interesting? What kind of people do I enjoy talking to? And what kind of firm setting do I enjoy the most? So those are really the things you do during those 8 months of articling. Not everyone does articling here in Ontario. There's also a law practice program you can also join. That can also allow you to get licensed as well. And then after you finish those 8 to 10 months of articling, and of course after you pass the bar exam here in Ontario, then you can get officially called to the bar as a lawyer. I was called to the bar, let me think. Oh, almost like a month ago actually. I was called on June 29th. Oh, congrats. So it's been a month since I've been officially a lawyer. So there we go. Yes. So that's been very exciting. There you go. Congratulations, first of all. Thank you. Yes. Incredible. All right. Well, with this experience so far, could you say that— could you like maybe point out something that podcasting has helped in your career or, you know, the way you think things through? Like, how has this project also been beneficial to you? I think it's been very beneficial just in terms of knowing how to ask good questions. And, you know, as when I'm going back into litigation, asking good questions is what I think might be very important, you know, when you do an examination for discovery, for instance, or just, you know, even as a young lawyer, you know, you have to ask good questions for your, from your senior colleagues to know how to do things. And this is a skill that I've really developed since journalism school. And that's something that they really ingrained in me, like how to ask good questions. Like, you don't want to ask overly complex questions. You don't want to do compound questions where you ask 2 things in the same sentence. So it's really allowed me to kind of think of these big legal topics. And when I'm drafting questions, I always try to think about, okay, what's the most simple way I can ask this question so that the audience doesn't get lost? And what is the best way to ask a question that allows the other person to answer as openly as possible, but also tell me what I kind of want to get from them too. So that's been very useful. Another great thing about the podcast is really learning how to manage your time, of course, with editing and— scheduling interviews, but it's also allowed me to really get to know a wider network of people within the legal community and also outside of it. You know, I mean, without the show, I would've never been able to talk with a Supreme Court Justice or other legal professionals or Law Society Benchers that we have here. So it's been a great experience getting to find these people. Of course, Ogen, I have to shout them out again. They have an incredible network of people that they can introduce me to. So finding guests for the show has also been very fun experience in terms of just meeting all these different people that I otherwise might not have met without the show. That's incredible. That's so nice to hear. And moving forward, another question that I was, you know, curious about. I've seen that your posts on LinkedIn about the podcast have gotten quite the interaction, which is so nice and so well deserved. And I was wondering, what kind of feedback have you heard? Did you get some of your colleagues from law school texting you? And how has that been for you? Just how well the people are receiving what they've heard, and how fun has that been? It's been really good. We released our first episode, I think, at the beginning of June. And it's been great because I even went to one of our firm social events that we had. And some people came up to me. They were like, oh my gosh, we listened to your first episode with Supreme Court Justice Obonsuwan. And we love the title of the show. It fits so well. We love the questions you were asking. And I was, of course, very humbled by those answers because it kind of felt like I was doing something right. And I really love that people responded well to the tone of the show, that it wasn't too overly casual, but at the same time, it was not super serious where people would be like, oh, this feels like a lecture and I don't want to listen to it. Mm-hmm. And then of course, you mentioned like people online responding to it, and I find it's been great. You know, you have people not just from law school or family members that responded to it, but also people from like journalism school who have responded very well. And I think they're really— it's just been really good to see people like the show and listen to it and share it and also talk about it. And we were recently interviewed by Law Times as well, which is a publication here in Ontario. So I was interviewed along with Ogen for an article, the beginnings of the show and kind of what our long-term goals is. And recently Canadian Lawyer also put us as An honorable mention as one of the best legal podcasts in Canada right now. So that has been a very good sign of encouragement for me. And it's been, it's been very cool. And I mean, this is just, we're not even done releasing episodes yet. I mean, by the time your episode comes out, I don't know, but we still have a couple episodes left to give out for this first season. So having that recognition already has been very, very humbling. And I have to thank the people at Ogen, of course, for their support. And of course, to our guests. As well for being such great people and for giving me their time and their knowledge. Well, and I must say it's very well deserved, you know, and thinking about that, if I may ask you, can you share any specific memorable episode or, and maybe without giving a spoiler necessarily to the upcoming episodes, but was there any, you know, special moment or experience that you've had as you were recording or as you were preparing that you could share with our audience as well? You know, every episode is different, and I like that there's a big diversity in terms of the subject matters that we cover on the show so far. And I think every time before I interview someone, I always get very nervous. And I think that comes all the time with just being someone who interviews people. Even when I was in journalism school, I'd always be very scared of interviewing people, but then I just kind of take that leap of faith and I just start asking questions. But it's been a very unique experience because you hear of these people and they're all very highly sought-after professionals and really You know, well-esteemed people. So getting to talk with them and try to figure out, okay, how can I make this more casual? What are their vibes like? So those first few questions that I always ask, or even when I talk with them before we start recording, those are the times when I can kind of figure out, okay, what is your style like? What kind of tone can I set for this episode? But it's been fun because, you know, you have people like Supreme Court Justice Obonsowun who was just so fun to talk to and so open and I got to talk to her about some of my trips to the Supreme Court and embarrassing stories about myself. And she got to share with me her love for metal music, which is great. And then in other episodes, I got to reconnect with my old professor from Carleton University, Janice Tibbetts, and talk to me about her past as a justice reporter. So it's been a really fun mix. We had a roundtable with LGBTQ+ individuals. We also had another episode about freedom of expression. The entire show has been very diverse, really, and it's really a smorgasbord of ideas for people to kind of dive in and listen to. And not every episode is the same. I guess for me, what I've really enjoyed from it as well is just— or memorable moments is just whenever you really find like you're really getting into the groove with the person you're interviewing. And they also feel comfortable with you. And when it becomes like a really genuine conversation between 2 people, Kind of like a coffee chat rather than just a full-on professional interview. Those are the moments that I really cherish where it's like, ah, there we go. We've, we've reached a point where, you know, things can flow very easily. And I think people will really enjoy listening to those conversations because of how natural they are and how fun they are and how much we are both willing to share our experiences and our knowledge with the listeners and That's been great. And every episode has been like that. You know, every person I've interviewed so far has been just incredible and super fun to talk to and interview, and they've always been super supportive of the show and its casual nature. So I love that. Yeah, I, I have to say, you, you got another fan in me for sure. Thank you. That's so nice of you. Yeah. And that definitely has to do with, uh, you know, your personality. I know that you have the, the professional training from, from journalism school. But still, uh, just your personality and everything do add a lot to it. So yeah, kudos for, for doing such a special project. No, and kudos to you too, because I mean, oh my goodness, you have so many episodes out and you've probably worked so hard on this show already. So I mean, you have so many different episodes as well with so many amazing people. So congratulations to you as well, because you are really killing it in terms of just building this brand for yourself and providing this resource for other people to listen to and learn from. So I honestly, I'm very inspired by you too. Well, it's been, it's been a lot of fun. I must say it all started as a kind of like a law school project to know how to become licensed in different countries. Yes. I got to, you know, attend some conferences and wanted to hear how, how do you become a lawyer in your country? You know, I went there, presented a paper, and then I kind of chit-chatted on the corridors, but then later on I was like, that's so interesting. I want more people to hear about that. Kind of, it has grown into what it is right now. So it's been a lot of fun and it's great to host people like you for sure. Oh, well, thank you. Well, see, you took an idea and then you ran with it and you took the initiative to make something from it. So I commend you for that as well. And I wish you nothing but success for the rest of your show. Yeah, thank you so much. Well, if we may, if I may ask you another question, you know, kind of to keep going and kind of wrapping up as well. How do you see the podcast evolving, you know, as you progress in your career, as all of this good recognition comes about? Do you already see a new season coming up for next year? Do you think you will do it as long as you can? What's— what do you have in mind? Oh my goodness. You know, the reception has been so good right now, but I'm always thinking about the future of the show. I mean, I'm always thinking of topics that I could potentially cover on the show. Honestly, right now, the series— I mean, the subjects I could cover really is kind of limitless right now because maybe something could come on the news and I can make an episode about that, or there's some person I find really interesting that I want to interview, that can be an episode as well. But I'm always thinking about what's coming next for the show. When September rolls around, I know that O*Gen will be promoting the show, I believe, to high school students when they come back to school. That's awesome. So I think we'll push it out to a lot more teachers to kind of introduce to their students. So that'll be something to look forward to when the fall comes around. But in terms of the next season, you know, I'm always on the lookout, you know, I'm always on the lookout for people to interview. And I'm always open to editing because it doesn't take that much effort to edit these podcasts. It's mostly just cleaning up sentences, taking out some of the ums and ahs when people speak just to make it more streamlined. But, you know, I've been able to manage doing the show during articling. So when I come back as an associate, I hope that I'll also have the time to, to work on the show. But of course, Ogen's always, you know, like, put your work first. And I always acknowledge that too. So if I'm busy, I might have to put this a little bit on the back burner, but Ogen's never like rushing me to like push out these episodes or anything, you know, so they're always super flexible and super nice to me. So hopefully I'll be able to record more soon because I would love to continue doing this show. Given me so much, it's given me such a great time, you know, during Articley to do this on the side as a fun hobby and also getting to meet all our guests. You know, it's always been a privilege and I would love to keep doing it for as long as I can right now. That's fantastic. We, I'm sure me and everybody else who gets to hear your podcast and listen to it is very happy to hear that. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for sharing some of your insights, some of your life, and some of this wonderful project you're running. We really appreciate the opportunity to hosting you here today. Yes. Thank you so much. And please, everyone, please listen to this show. I mean, this has been, you have so many episodes. I'm so impressed by how far you've built this show already. So, I mean, please, people, please, please keep listening to the show because it's doing incredible. So, yeah. Well, thank you so much once again. We'll, we'll see you around. We're looking forward to having new episodes of The Lost Syrup. And yes, we'll definitely be seeing the link for it down here on the description. Whoever is trying to look for an easy way to get to it. Thank you guys. See you next episode. Yes.