The Sunk Cost Trap, the Mentor Deck, and the Science of Patent Law with Khadija Wilson

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to be joined by Khadijah Wilson. She's a PhD graduate. She's currently a JD candidate at Temple Law. She's also the founder of Rooted Advising. She does career advisory for professionals entering and exiting careers at the science-law intersection. Thank you so much for making the time to join me today in the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Amazing. And to start our conversation right away, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about yourself, about your journey from the Caribbean to the US, and then from science into patent law. Yeah, no, I think it has been one— journey is one of the greatest words you can use. Raised in Trinidad and Tobago, and from a young age, I had a really big fascination with science. Around teenage years, I learned about some of my family's medical history, and I did a deep dive on genetics. And with all the hubris that teenage me could muster, I was like, I'm going to become a biochemist. We're going to solve this. So, at that time, I thought the only way I could do this and chase that dream was to go to college in the US. So once I finished high school back home, I migrated and I applied and I went to Medgar Evers College for a year. That's in New York. But at the time, Medgar was still growing, so I moved, transferred to Brooklyn College because they had more science programs and more grants that were funding students directly going into the scientific pipelines. I finished my bachelor's in biology there, and while I was there is when I really first learned about patent law. And I always tell everyone, like, I decided this career when I was a sophomore in college. And when I decided it, a lot of people said, oh, you're going to change your mind. And I'm really happy to report that my mind has not wavered since. Because it blew my mind at the fact that someone can do both and scientist. You can be both an advocate and someone who is passionate about discovery. And that really pushed me. So I was hooked onto the career or the idea of becoming a patent attorney. And at the time, a sophomore, all the information I had was Google. And so I went on a path of sheer determination, tenacity, and willpower to kind of get to where I'm at now, which is a patent agent, law student, and a business owner. It has been a long plan in the making from biochemistry to now. But I'm really happy that I chased this dream. That's incredible. Thank you so much for starting our show on such a positive note. I understand you were a first-generation college graduate, a first-generation graduate student, a first-generation law student. I'm curious to hear from you, you know, what were some of the hardest parts of moving through institutions where no one in your family could provide a roadmap and maybe even, you know, in another country, in another language? I'd love to hear how was that like for you navigating it? Yeah, and I would say, thankfully, the official language in Trinidad and Tobago is English. Broken English, but English nonetheless. But the hardest part for moving through these institutions was really complex. Like, I can't say it was one simple thing. The first part that I had to come to terms with was suddenly being a Black woman in America and a Black woman trying to break into a pretty niche field at that. And I mention this because honestly, I don't think I truly experienced racism until I moved, and that was a really jarring experience, especially when I was in situations where I wasn't sure whether I did something that prompted the person's response or not. Because of that, and because I was in these different spaces, I had no one to really call on at first. My guidance and mentors were mainly people of— white people, and so they weren't necessarily aligning with what I was experiencing, and then my family couldn't provide any guidance because no one knew. So I never had someone to really ask if what I was experiencing was normal. Because of that, it really made me tap into being hyper-aware because every single space I entered felt like a pool I had to temperature check or a test that no one mentioned was coming. So I would get into a room and I learned how to scan quickly and read a room and read it fast. It was useful, and I think it was A skill that I'm very grateful that I developed, but I don't think it should have been a prerequisite. Like, it was a survival skill rather than a professional one, figuring out where I can fit in, because there was this general feeling of, I don't belong here. I shouldn't be at this table. No one is making room for me to sit or even telling me how to get a seat. And so I had this underlying fear of not belonging for a while. And this got worse when I met friends who had parents who had a Not just bachelor's degrees, but advanced degrees. I remember my first friend who told me her mom had a PhD. I sat with that information what felt like forever, and I was like, wow. As someone who's first-gen in so many places, to know that, I suddenly felt like I was in a race where everyone else was running free and my arms are tied to my sides. Like, I could run, and I ran, but it was difficult and uncomfortable. So the hardest part in transitioning was really trying to figure out what is my place actually in these institutions? And if there's not a place for me, can I make one? And importantly, do I want to? And sometimes the answer was no. Wow. What a, what an interesting experience. And I think that one of the powerful points of hearing stories is the conflict of that reality, right? I find that that a lot of the things that you're sharing online and that maybe these really hard experience that you've experienced is now also fueling some, some passion to mentor and guide the next generation of people who are going through this. Thank you for opening up and sharing these in the podcast. I think it's something that's really important because I think there are too many things as human beings we keep as little gems and nuggets. And I understand being vulnerable is something that's Mm-hmm. But I don't think it's a form of weakness. I feel like it's a form of strength, and it's a way that people can feel like they have someone else. Like, my goal has always been to be someone that I've had a lot of lived experience, and so someone can come to me, and I don't have to be in their exact situation to relate to what they're saying, but I want them to feel comfortable enough to know that they can have someone be in their corner who's going to listen, who is willing to hear the things that you feel like is not something that typically could be said, because at the end of the day, I think these conversations are vital. I think the fact that we lacked having these conversations for so many years puts us in the predicaments that we are in today worldwide. That's incredible. And Khadijah, if I may, you know, double-click in another aspect of your life that you shared with us, I understand you said that you discovered patent law while studying science. What attracted you to the field and even how did your scientific training prepare you for the legal work? How has that experience been going for you with, you know, law school, having that PhD background? Yeah, no, I think I absolutely love the fact that I did both. I have no regrets in doing them. And I think that's something I want to really emphasize from the beginning. And I want to also emphasize that I was fully aware as to what I was getting into from the jump. So I learned about patent law while I was working in a lab at Brooklyn College. And there we were working on methods of trying to stabilize peptides for when they were ingested. And one conversation that I remember vividly was when my professor, the head of the lab, said, if you get this method to work, we could get a patent. And I asked him, and I remember his answer being so short that I was not satisfied with what he gave me. So as I do, I looked it up myself. And the moment I saw it, I was drawn to it. Like, it was like an instantaneous connection. It feels like one of the decisions in my life that, despite the skepticism I received around it from the beginning, I've never really once wavered on it. Because as much as I loved science and discovery, I knew from then that I didn't want to spend the rest of my life studying just one protein or one pathway. Like, you get very specialized in one thing. when you go into advanced scientific degrees. But I am what I like to call a lifelong learner. I am curious. I wanted a full gamut of knowledge, not just one thing. So here I found a career where I can stay close to innovation, learn about fun discoveries, and I don't have to be at the bench. Where do I sign? So my next Google search was then, how do I become a patent lawyer? And at the time, it was like 2015, I remember specifically it said, you know, you can go straight to law school, or you can go down and getting an advanced degree would be helpful, and it would make you a more competitive patent attorney. And as a first-gen student, migrant, I knew I couldn't afford to go to law school at the time, and I was already on the science track. I already was on a track to getting my PhD. So I said, you know what? This is what we're going to do. We're going to do the PhD. We're going to get in. We're going to get out. We're going to confirm and go to a firm and ensure that we actually like this, and then we're going to go to law school. And crazy enough, the plan worked exactly as I wanted it to because I spent 4 years at Penn doing my PhD in pharmacology. I finished, I took a few months off, and then I started my first job. In that job, I recognized I actually do in fact love this. This is what I was looking for. So I became a patent agent in that year, and then I applied to law school shortly after. I think one of the biggest things that my scientific training produced was a way of thinking. And I think it didn't just produce it, it kind of enhanced what I already had innately in me. It gave me a set of habits that were built over the years of operating at the edge of human knowledge. Like I studied epigenetics, which was still rapidly advancing. It's figuring out how little marks on your DNA can control what is expressed in your cell. There's no answer. There's no established precedent. There's something— you're doing something that no one has done before. And so doing that, my scientific training gave me stamina for living in the ambiguity. Like, you were working when no map existed. You were working and you do an experiment and praise God if it works, and you still praise him if it don't, because then you're like, you know, you go from there. You take that negative data and you make something out of it. It also taught me how to do root-causing troubleshooting, like— When you get rejections from the patent office, it's like a failed experiment. It's, you have to be able to figure out where did I go wrong and how can I rectify this? What argument can I bring? And it also allowed me to have some first principle thinking because one of the big things about patent law is really understanding the invention at a mechanistic level. I think it's not just, you know, what it does, but what could it do? Can it go? And I think this is where the curiosity and the drive from learning science really honed in and became a real big skill for me in patent law. Because the training wasn't just about learning facts, it really was teaching you how to think on the edge of what's known. And I think that is exactly what patent law needs. You've written quite a bit about unwritten rules of professional life. You talked about managing up, you talked about self-advocacy. You talked about navigating power dynamics. We started in, in a moment of, of vulnerability and, and then saying so many very, very interesting things. Our audience is mainly composed of law students and early career professionals. So I'd love if you could, you know, just give us a little bit of a, of, hey, like, look this up, you guys, look the— look that up. You know, this will really help you in your career. Yeah, no, I think First of all, where does it all come from? Life experience. You know, the best way to learn is to, you know, dive in. But to the question about like the skills and the skills that I find to be so important for young professionals, and honestly, even mid-professionals, and to be honest, even more than that, I think senior-level professionals can benefit from understanding how to advocate for yourself before someone else defines your ceiling. Something that might surprise people is that Gen Z are the reason why I really sat and thought about this, because I recognized while working, there was a tendency for older generations to dismiss them, but I kept paying attention because what they were saying was not out of the blue. They normalized 2 things that I think are genuinely right. The first is taking your mental health seriously in the workplace. It's not a fail— a personal failing. It's not a moral failure. It's not something you hide. It's a real professional concern. And when you ignore your mental health, it affects everything. And I think someone, like, for managers, it should matter to them how their junior workers' mental health is doing, because someone in a positive headspace can access more of their skills, more of their creativity than someone on the verge of a breakdown. Like, it's practically speaking, for the business, a better idea to ensure your employees are in a better space. The second thing is refusing to let work be your entire identity, your entire life. The fate— like, Gen Zers view work as a vital part of life, but not a soul-defining focus. And I 100% agree. Because if you were to pause your life until retirement, work is now a punishment. You're going through all these years of schooling to end up in golden handcuffs. And that's not a life that I think anyone should build toward. And it's not something I build toward or I help my clients build towards. So my goal in saying for people to advocate for themselves, I think it's like setting boundaries, establishing expectations, and naming your goals. People often go into interviews and spaces and just get questions asked of them and things put on them, and they never once think of making it a two-way relationship. At the end of the day, they are getting something from you. You are giving something to them. So you need to establish what it is you wanna take away from it. And I think doing this and the reaction of the people in the spaces, that tells you whether or not a place is a great fit or if someplace is just here for a time. Because some people might say, hey, just give it time, but time doesn't always equate things getting better, especially in these professional areas. Like, more time in a place that's ignoring your boundaries, that's moving the goalposts, having unrealistic expectations, That's not gonna improve things. It's only going to cost you. It's gonna cost you time that you cannot get back. It's gonna cost you the ability to pivot. It's gonna cost you learning a different way that work can be, a different version of yourself, and you cannot get that back. And I feel like when people use time as a reason for staying in a position, like, well, I already worked here for 2 years. What is 2 more? You now use time as a cage. Like, time is then caging you in because even though you feel like you invested that time and you don't want to lose it, it's really a sunk cost trap because now it's brilliant people in places where I'm watching them get slowly diminished. I'm watching them lose their confidence. I'm watching them become more sad about the work they're doing, more unhappy, and recognizing that this is directly affecting what they put out. This is directly affecting how they show up, how they interact, and I think this is why self-advocacy is so important because the people that I've seen that struggle the most with this are the people who are unable to really stand firm for themselves and believe that they should even stand firm for themselves, and I think one of the ways that people can get better at advocating for themselves is finding a mentor who's genuinely invested in their growth, not someone who's just invested in themselves. themselves and their own comfort, because those people are only interested in your compliance so they can be comfortable. It has to be someone who doesn't have anything to gain from you, but is willing to help. And those people exist. So I think 100%, it's advocating for yourself and learning how to do it and finding people that can help push you along that. So as for practical skills that I would say, I think like, I would say for people who are now coming into this space, It's finding people who tell you the truth. And it's such an unfortunate thing that the truth is something that's so hard for people to do because, as I said earlier, being vulnerable is not the norm. But I think one of the things I recognized is you have to reach out. You have to try. Like, the worst outcome is the person doesn't respond to you. Like, if you see someone in an area you want to practice in, in a company you want to work at, in a firm. Reach out, send them a message, let them know you're interested. Best outcome from that is you now have a new person in your network. And that's really all it takes. It just takes having one person to know you exist. One person who's doing what you want to do to think back, I knew this entry-level person who wants to come into this. And like, that's something that's really, really, really beneficial for you in the long run. And I'll emphasize again, finding mentors when you find a firm. Or any place of establishment you're working in. And those mentors should be on every level. You shouldn't just find one. You should find what I like to call a Yu-Gi-Oh deck of mentors, one at a junior level, one at the mid-level level, and one at senior. I'll also add, especially as we enter new spaces, you should listen more than you talk. Stay observant so you can see the unspoken rules early. One of the ways that I've been able to adapt in different high-pressure environments is the fact that I'm pretty personable and I can conversate with most. I think in conversing and hearing different people's stories, that allowed me to really recognize some of the underlying mechanics of the places that I was working at. So engaging with your coworkers, talking with people who are there, talking with people who are there and they don't seem happy, or talking to the people that are there and that do seem happy, like You can learn so much about that workplace by simply having a conversation. And the last thing I wanna say with regards to entering these spaces is, it's really important to remember that no one can define who you are or where you can go. There is no version of this where you're behind someone. You could just be navigating in a space that doesn't have a map. It doesn't have clear directions. It's harder. But I can tell you as someone who's walked through it, it makes you so much sharper. I love that. Thank you so much for making the time and sharing all of that. So where are you in your law school journey now? What's the current stage for you? I am going into my last year. I tell everyone I'm currently in year 14 of my 15-year plan. And I start year 15 in 2 weeks. I am going in, I did the part-time program. So in the US, that's 4 years. And so I'm going into my 4th year this coming semester, and by next year this time, I would have already graduated, taken and passed the bar, and starting my career as officially as a patent attorney. And I'm super stoked for it. How can young professionals protect themselves while still learning, performing well, building strong relationships, and eventually, you know, moving on as needed? Yeah, I think, you know, as someone who is hardworking and eager to learn, one of my biggest challenges was actually recognizing my own limits. And in not recognizing that, I learned that if you don't set a limit, they will. And in many instances, one just won't exist for you. So you have to go in knowing how much of your time and energy and mental space you're going to dedicate to this. I think it's important to have that conversation with yourself before going in because knowing what you're going to dedicate helps you stay proactive with your projects and your clients. But it also helps you prioritize your wellbeing because getting 5-star reviews at the end of the year, but your health is failing, those reviews don't matter. Like there's a balance that I don't think is simply work-life balance. As I said earlier, work is a part of life. So I think it's more about balancing your priorities and knowing how to triage, especially when you're in a space where work is fast-paced and controlled by deadlines. I think one of the ways in which young professionals can be protecting themselves while also putting themselves out there is seeking guidance when they're confused. There's this notion that, you know, you're supposed to know. How? If you don't know, and you don't know what you don't know, you ask. It's so much better to ask for help than stay silent because most times the other person can interpret that silence as things are running smoothly, and that's often not the case. And then when they come back and find it, it's a lot of flared emotions, and it could have been solved by you being proactive in the request. So I would say there's a balance between also recognizing things that you advocate for yourselves and things that you actually owe to Because as I said, it's a relationship. Things are being exchanged on both sides. You need to ensure that you're bringing your end of the bargain. So when you're asking them to hold their end of the bargain, they can't say, well, XYZ, because of the fact of these systems are naturally, unfortunately, the way that they're currently running, unhealthy. And so you like, I personally like to have my I's dotted and my T's crossed. And part of that is being able to make sure I'm managing my projects, my clients. As efficiently as I can, making sure that I am trying to be as proactive as I can, and also recognizing the caveat that I'm working in a system that's not just fixable by me being excellent. It's not fixable by me just doing my very best. Because if you're in a place where you're feeling constant pressure, you're not growing, you're not advancing. And it feels like there's just no end in sight, you're a hamster on a wheel, that's the point in time where I say, doesn't matter how well you perform, this place is not investing in your growth, and it's time for us to move on. So it's recognizing when things are challenging and you're getting better versus when you're challenging and it's staying the same. Because if you hit that plateau, it's time for us to move on. Because while resilience is an amazing survival skill, It is not a, it's not a solution in any way, shape, or form. And I think knowing the difference is what protects young professionals as they're entering into this field. That's amazing. I also wanted to ask you, you know, what led you to leave a big corporation and to launch Rooted Advising? And maybe even what gaps are you trying to address for scientists, for first-generation professionals entering into the patent law world? Yeah. I think one of the biggest issues I recognized while working is that the people around me were so, so talented, but they had so little confidence in their abilities. And I recognized that it's a way in which the system is designed, that there was this gap between their confidence levels and what their potential is. And it was beyond just mere imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome is something that assumes the feeling is in your head, but what I was seeing was a system that was actively confirming their doubts in themselves, and that was different, and for me, it was more lethal. The other thing is the fact that while being in there and seeing people be just really hard on themselves, I also recognized the fact that I've been doing mentoring unofficially for years because before launching Rooted, I had 42 different people, 42 brave souls who saw I was a patent agent on LinkedIn. They had an interest in the career. They did not know where to start. And I met with every single one of them because I remember being in their position. I remember 2016 Khadijah Googling how to become a patent agent and all the things I had to learn the hard way because Google couldn't say. And so after years of clawing and finally getting to sit at the table, I recognized there, actually, this is not what I want. I want to build a new table, a different table, one where it's not an isolating career, but one where there can be guidance, there could be community, and there can be a listening ear. So the gap that I'm filling is really trying to help one improve the livelihoods of the people actually going into the career, because one thing I noticed from the inside is how many people want to leave it, and their reasons for wanting to leave it is more about The systems themselves rather than the career. I love doing patent work. I absolutely do. It's why being an independent patent agent is still a great fit for me because I can still do patent prosecution without having to be tied to a firm. But my issue was seeing so many people struggling and recognizing all the ways in which I knew I could be there and be an advocate and help them that I wasn't getting to do while working. So Leaving was a big push in me trying to fill this gap that I find across different areas, but especially for people who, you know, you were once at the edge of human understanding, and now you're in a position where someone is asking you to do a form that you've never seen before, and now you're suddenly questioning your intelligence because you can't fill this form out. That's not anything to do with your intelligence. That's practically speaking, it's not something you were ever taught. So the gap I'm filling is really on multiple levels, trying to help more scientists enter the field, trying to help more young professionals who are already in the field recognize that exiting the field is not the only option. There are way more things you can do with your career and your experience in patent law than just pivoting or going back to the lab or trying to go do something completely different. if that's not what you want. And to help the people recognize that you can be a great worker and still be a great person to yourself. You can still be hardworking and a self-advocate. It's not one or the other. Both can happen and both should happen because that's how we become better as human beings. And that's how society overall will get better. What an awesome conversation. Many of our listeners are those young career professionals. I think one thing I would say entering the market is the same way I want you to prioritize advocating for yourself is the same way I want you to really think about what is unique about you. We all have very different experiences. And when you're entering into a space where now we have so much competing information, we have so much AI, you need to think about what can I bring to the table That no one else can. And I want to make sure everyone who hears this knows every single person has a value add. Every single person brings a unique thing to the table. We are not all the same. We don't all live the same lives. And so because of that, we can all be in this space. You need to figure out what is it you're selling? What is the thing about you that makes having you in that room different? And This can be so many different ways. It could be that you have great people-talking skills. You can speak with clients. You have a really great way with writing, or you have very good, quick understanding of specific types of areas. There's so many different ways. That was just a small chunk of it. So while I promote self-advocacy, I also promote figuring out what's your, what do you bring to the table? Like if we're in a potluck of minds, what is your meal? What are you bringing that no one else can bring? Because knowing that, truly knowing that, is really what helps you not only get into a job, but establish a career. Because then, once you know that, and you set that tone, and everyone else learns that, then that's what your reputation becomes. Like, oh, Khadijah, she's really great with talking with clients. Like, clients love talking with her. Great. I love to talk. So it works out for me. So that's what I mean. Like you have to really know your value add and think about it. I think it's really important because we can't, we should not all bring the same thing to the table. That's like showing up to Thanksgiving and there's 12 turkeys. Where's the, where's the mac and cheese? Where's the mashed potatoes? What's happening here? Where's the beans? So we don't want to do that. So figure out what is your side to bring and bring it. And thank you all too, for you who's listening to this episode, and we'll see you on the next one. Thank you for having me.