The Global Classroom, Comparative Equality, and Leaving Your Jurisdiction with David Oppenheimer, Panos Kapotas, and Laura Carlson

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I'm joined by Professor David Oppenheimer of Berkeley Law, Panos Kapotes of University of Portsmouth, and Laura Karlsson of Stockholm University. Together, they have built an international course in comparative equality law that connects students and professors across several continents. And today we'll explore what they have learned about teaching law across borders and also hear a little about their personal perspectives on studying law abroad or on international education. And to begin, I'd love for each of you to introduce yourself briefly, tell us a little bit about your work, and explain how your own international experiences have shaped the way you think about legal education? I want to thank you, Claudie, and thank you very much for this opportunity to be here. And also thank you very much for bringing up this subject, especially for a more American audience, because it's not something you're exposed to so often in law school. I'm a professor in private law at Stockholm University, and I've been teaching there for over 25 years. Sweden has a civil law system, which I define as judges do not perceive their role as making the law, but rather simply enforcing the law. which is a very different perspective than the common law perspective. However, I do have a Juris Doctor from the University of Minnesota. So I've been taught in a common law jurisdiction and I have a Juris Candidat from Sweden. So I've also been taught in the civil law on jurisdiction. So I think that when it comes to the classroom, I naturally bring a little bit of both. So what I do in my advanced courses is I try to have a Socratic method as in the United States. But it's a gentler, kinder Socratic method with the students getting the questions in advance and working in groups in advance. And then they all can answer in a group. And so it's a little bit different, but the idea is still to try to motivate the students to be more active in the classroom. That's amazing. Thank you. And Claudio, thank you as well for having us here and connecting us to your listeners. I'm Panos Kapotas. I'm an associate professor. In Equality and Human Rights Law at the University of Portsmouth in the UK. I'm originally from Greece, and I did my first degree in law, my LLB, in Athens, which, like Sweden, is a civil law system. And then I did the rest of my legal education in the UK at UCL and LSE in London. So I'm very much an academic migrant myself. I've moved from one type of system to another. But although I have been living and working in the UK UK since 2003. I'm still pretty much working on European equality and human rights law, which encompasses the 2 big families of legal systems. So it encompasses civil law and common law jurisdictions. So much of the work that I do in the classroom involves me talking to students about a set of legal rules that should transcend these jurisdictional differences between civil law and common law. And I'm sure that we'll have an opportunity to talk a bit more about the comparative dimension of the work that all of us do with the Comparative Equality Law Course. Thank you. And thank you, David, for coming back on the show. I really appreciate you making the time. Happy to be here. Happy to see you again, Claudio. I am a clinical professor of law. At the University of California, Berkeley. And as a clinical professor, I teach civil procedure and evidence using clinical methods, using a good deal of simulation. And I practice clinical law by practicing law with my students, working with students on equality law cases from around the world. When I started teaching, I found that from time to time, I had the opportunity to interact with colleagues from Europe, colleagues from Asia, colleagues from Canada, from various parts of South America and Africa. And each time we discussed the work of equality law, I came away thinking, I learned so much from that brief interaction. And so 25 years ago, I started a program at the University of Paris Nanterre, campus in comparative law, where an American law professor and a French law professor would jointly teach courses to a mixture of American and European students. And they were just mind-blowing discussions. They were, they were fabulous class meetings. We have a center for the study of comparative equality law, which Laura and Panos were early members of and are very active members And it's through that work with the Center that our course evolved and that I've continued to learn that one of the richest things we can do as lawyers and as scholars is find opportunities to discuss legal issues with people from other legal systems and compare the approach. That we just, it's the value of the diversity principle. It's the value of bringing different backgrounds and experiences to problems that we learn so much from each other. Did this collaboration begin because you believed the course could also bring perspective? What were some of the main ideas when you first got started? Were there a few changes that you've made to polish the program and make it even better for your participants? The course wasn't so much a planned development as a response to the pandemic. We had teachers and students that were suffering in isolation. And the idea was, what can we do at this time to try to decrease the isolation and try to bring about something creative and giving in this process? So it was very much a result of the pandemic and the effects it was having on both the teachers and the students. I have been teaching comparative equality law for many years and had started using Skype technology. to invite people to join the class from various places. But with COVID shutting down classrooms and with all of us developing skills in the use of Zoom and other similar technologies, it just seemed like— what's the expression? That a crisis is a terrible thing to waste? And Thanos and Laura are both people who I so admire and the opportunity to work further with them, they, it was just, it was extraordinary. It was so easy. to figure out who should I reach out to try to organize something like this, because they're, they are extraordinary scholars, but they're also extraordinary teachers and people with big hearts. Thank you. And I think I should say that the initial group of people involved other colleagues from the center that David invited to join this very first attempt to get out of our physical spaces, our confined physical spaces during COVID and create a community of scholars and students. I think it's probably the most, one of the most significant markers of the success of the course that after this first year, after this first iteration of Comparative Equality Law, which started with the start of the US academic term, end of August 2020. And went all the way to December 2020. And for most of that time, all of us were confined to our, to our homes. But it is one of the markers of the success of the course that after this first year, during which we pretty much created the course as we went along, because we didn't really have the time to prepare everything in advance and structure everything. So the amount of work that went into this first iteration of the course from all of the colleagues that were involved And the amount of enthusiasm from the students and the patience and the constructive feedback was, I think, quite extraordinary. But the marker of the success is precisely that we decided to continue. This year, we are now in the process of preparing for the 6th iteration of Comparative Equality. What are some of the things that you noticed that students could learn through these conversations maybe they couldn't learn through traditional comparative law manuals alone? Well, they get different perspectives on a whole series of legal issues. We talk about women's equality and the right to reproductive choice. And in the US perspective, that has been defined as part of the right of privacy and part of the right of people to have a professional relationship with a physician. But in other systems, it's seen as an equality right. In other systems, it's seen as a right to physical autonomy. Every legal system that has grappled with the question of the right to abortion has had its own perspective, born of its own legal system and its own culture and its own traditions. And so understanding the various arguments, the various justifications, is incredibly enriching for the students. And it's one thing to get a lecture on it, from your own professor. And it's another thing to go into small groups and discuss it with students from different legal systems and different backgrounds. For the Swedish students from the civil law system, using the law to change society and seeing judges actually making law to create rather sweeping principles is a very foreign thing for them. And so to hear these students basically from the Americas, from both North America and South America, be so passionate about things like justice and fairness and stuff was actually quite an eye-opener from the Swedish discussion, which tends to be based more on things like legal certainty. You have to see it in action to truly understand it. And the Swedish students enjoyed that very much. There's a, there's a wonderful phrase on your page, Claudio. You say that law is local. And I was really reflecting on that before we started our conversation today. So without taking away anything from what David and Laura just said, I think the opposite of what you say on your webpage is also true. Law is also global. Basic legal principles around what is fair and what is not, what is equal and what is not, are contained in our international constitution, our international human rights law, the basis of our common system of values. And all lawyers, regardless of where we find ourselves, regardless of our jurisdictional divisions, position in the legal world, whether we are practitioners or academics, whether we are students or teachers of law, especially when it comes to areas of law like equality law, we need to acknowledge that basic legal principles are in some very fundamental sense global. So our exchanges, David said before that we all learn from each other. And this is, I think, at the very heart of the course. It's the essence of this course. But all of our exchanges in the course of our classes, of putting together a syllabus, of running a class, our exchanges with each other, our exchanges with our students, I think are inspired both by the passion that Laura talked about, the passion about justice and equality, but also by a growing understanding of the fact that we have a common language and a common system of values that connects us despite the local, the national divisions, the different legal answers that each system may provide to questions of equality and non-discrimination. I appreciate you bringing that because it really is such an important point. And not only that, but something that I really enjoyed about this initiative is that you as a group opened up this incredible course that you've done, not only to those that participated in it, but also you published an article talking about what that experience was like in the Journal of Legal Education named Teaching Law Across 6 Continents. So there you described a little bit about this effort to reduce the traditional boundary between teachers and students. And I wanted to hear a little bit more about that experience. I want to invite all the listeners to take a look at the article. But was there a specific approach that you've developed in conjunction to make it more collaborative when you were trying to make this model that would work across different cultures and with students from different areas? This is a very, a very good, a very important question, Claudio, because I think that one of the interesting features of the course for us as well is that it keeps evolving. It keeps evolving every time we come back to it at the start of every year when we prepare for it. We take feedback from colleagues, from students. We sit down, we think things through, and we try to continuously add or adjust also to changing circumstances. The one thing that I think remains constant throughout the last 6 years in the way we approach the course is the fact that it is consciously non-hierarchical. There is no entry requirement for participating institutions. We do know with David and Laura that there is a saturation point, that there will come a time when we might have to turn an institution down for a particular year because we will have reached a number of institutions or a number of students that will make things logistically impossible. But other than that, there is no barrier to entry. So we have over the years participating institutions literally from every continent. We also set no particular requirement as to the level of the students that will attend the course, that will join the course, will participate in the course. So we have undergrad students from some European universities, we have graduate students from US universities, we have PhD students joining us, often as discussion leaders, and this is a conscious choice that has remained unchanged from the start of the course. I think this is probably what gives the course its distinctive essence, its distinctive flavor. The fact that we all, and by all I mean both teachers, instructors, and students, come to this course in the knowledge that we will get to meet members of that academic community that we're building, not just from different geographies, from different legal or natural physical geographies, but also people from different, at different stages of their career, at different stages of their journey with different aspirations and different ambitions as to what they want to do, different professional goals or academic goals. And this, I feel, is one of the most enriching features of the course for us as well, for those of us that participate in the, in the course as contributors, as lecturers, as instructors. And let me add that I would love to see this course replicated in other subject areas. When I think about the possibility of a securities regulation course with students and faculty from Singapore, Japan, the UK, Germany, and the United States, and Brazil, what a fascinating set of discussions there would be. Comparative property law course with people from different legal systems that have different views about the meaning of and the law of property. Gosh, wouldn't it be exciting to study property law with a scholar and students from China? All of that is now possible through this remarkable technology that allows us to meet together no matter where we are in the world and to have active discussions. It's a fabulous tool for teaching and learning. I would just like to add on the more granular level, we've got, what we've had is we've had a short lecture, breakout rooms, and then a plenary. In the breakout rooms, The students have been given questions that they could look at beforehand, and the idea with the breakout rooms isn't to continue the lecture, but actually to facilitate the discussions between the students. And we've had teachers who have tried to act as facilitators, and I think that that's given them this kind of one-on-one opportunity to discuss things that my students have said they've appreciated very much. And then we've come back into the plenary after the breakout sessions and had a student discussion again, led by, led by a teacher, of course, but again, to facilitate the student participation in the discussion. And I think that for some of the different teaching cultures we have, the fact that the professors, the teachers are so hands-on and so available, and then that they get to talk about these things in such a free type of atmosphere has been quite an eye-opener for some of them. And to be in a room with, with 5 students and a professor. For some of them, it's an amazing experience. So we've, on the granular level, also have tried to make sure that the students' activation is as supported as possible. Amazing. So the course focuses on equality, discrimination law. We talked a little bit about that, and these areas can be really closely connected to each country's history, to the political culture. Are there a few differences between legal systems that have created most valuable or surprising discussions for you as teachers, as professors? And I'm curious to hear a little bit about what kinds of insights that might have brought up. I'm assuming here that this project that was designed to connect everyone has possibly also changed a little bit of how you as the instructor have also seen these issues affected you as an instructor. As I can say, most striking minute in the years that we've been teaching this is we were talking about justice and equality, and we had a student from South America who said, in my village, we're worried about getting access to water. It's particularly from a Nordic perspective where we are very privileged that the conditions for these types of struggles varies considerably around the globe. And for me, that was just one of those aha moments that this is so much bigger than, than what we see in our daily life, at least in the Swedish context. So that, for me, that was kind of one of the biggest eye-openers of the course. I now know so much more about how different countries and different legal systems address issues of inequality. And the more I know, the more I realize how little I know. And perhaps I can briefly add that although most of us, I think, realize intellectually how important the sociopolitical context is in order to understand questions of equality. David mentioned abortion a few minutes ago. I think it is quite different when we realize in the context of such a large group of people, a diverse group of people that are all connected through this shared interest in equality law, shared passion for equality law. It is quite extraordinary, I feel, at times when we realize in the context of that group how difficult it is often to translate the common global values that I was talking about before, the general principles of law, into concrete legal answers. How significant is the distance we need to travel? We may realize that intellectually, but when it's happening in our everyday practice, when it's happening in classrooms full of people with different religious beliefs, different political views, different understandings of how the current political climate around the world on issues of equality plays out. I feel that this is one of the most truly eye-opening moments in the course. This work offers a model for a connected global legal education. What do you think the future of international legal education could look like? And do you think that this kind of initiative where we work together might be one of the keys for us to really be in a, in a world where we understand differences a little better. So long-term courses like this that are carbon neutral being built into law school curriculum could give lots of opportunities for students to form friendships, relationships, professional relationships, and broaden their understanding of how law is practiced around the world. Short-term, my advice to students and young professionals would be, one, to look for opportunities for LLM programs so that they can take an additional year of legal study in a different legal system on a different continent. And two, to join bar associations and other professional groups, many of which have committees or subgroups that work in the area of comparative and international law, and to use those opportunities, to leverage those opportunities, to get to know people practicing in other systems, to find ways to collaborate with people working in other systems, to build relationships. Swedish students start law school when they're 18. So they don't— it is an undergraduate, an undergraduate degree. So I think that we would have to still, in some ways, keep the classroom for the first couple of years. easily reach out to each other and ask each other some questions. So networks is another thing to think about. The master's programs, but there are also exchange agreements. You don't have to go for a whole year. You can go often on an exchange for a term even, and take that little bit of extra time if you can to go abroad because it is such an eye-opening experience. That's the one thing I regret about my education is I didn't do an exchange term, and I think I'm in charge of them now, so I think I should have done that. building relations and belonging to networks is really, in my mind, the most important step towards becoming a member of an academic or a professional community. I might perhaps just remind your listeners, Claudio, that essentially what David has built with both the Berkeley Center of Comparative Equality and Anti-Discrimination Law and with this course is a network that transcends different silos, as Laura was talking about. And this non-hierarchical element, I think, is something that should be replicated. And it is something that young legal scholars and legal professionals should be looking out for. This ability to belong without having to prove that you are special. The ability to belong in a community because of who you are. Because of the expertise you have or you're building and the expectation that you will be treated as an equal by the members of that community. I feel that this is a very important point to make because this is both what the center is about and what this course in particular is about. It would be, for me, if I think back to the start of my academic career, it would be the most welcome opportunity to join such a community. Fantastic. I really appreciate you, Laura, Panos, and David for making the time to come on the podcast today and share some insights both about the program you've built, about the careers and networks. It has just been extremely enriching to learn from you this day. And to wrap up today's episode, what you're doing for the international legal community, for really the future of what legal education can look like. is just an incredible heritage that will be cherished for sure. And I'm just so glad to host the 3 of you today here. Thank you very much.