Law, Leadership, and Mentorship with Brian Potts

Welcome to your studying law Around the world. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions that. Shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. This episode is sponsored by Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn IF? You're like 99% of. Lawyers, your answer is not great, which makes sense. You learned LinkedIn. As the. Place to stash a digital resume and share firm pressers. So no wonder your LinkedIn presence is somewhere between vanilla and nonexistent. But I've got good news. Since we all learned LinkedIn the wrong way, it's pretty easy to attract more positive attention for you or your business. Since 2022, Contender has been the premier agency helping lawyers go from invisible train. Possible to ignore on LinkedIn. To learn more, check out www.contenderllc.com. Tell them Claudio sent you. Today I have the opportunity to receive Brian Pots on the podcast. He's a partner at a big law firm and will talk with us today about mentoring, about his experience in law tech, and also about his social media presence, especially on LinkedIn, and about a special project called Legal Mentor Network. Thank you so much for joining us today, Brian. Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's great to be. Here, I really appreciate it. And to start off this episode, I'd love to ask you if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, tell our audience about who you. Are oh, OK, great. Well, I'm a lawyer. I'm a partner at a large U.S. law firm called Hush Blackwell. It's about 1100 lawyers, but what I really love to do is help people. And so I've sort of made a name for myself and the mentoring category. And frankly, in a lot of other areas, I've started a lot of companies now I, I've just sort of leaned in to a lot of different things and it's almost all come from helping random people for free and not asking anything from them. And so it's, it's been a bit of a, a interesting endeavor since I started. And honestly, it kind of started with the Legal Mentor Network, but the five years since that has blown up have just been incredible. That's amazing. Yeah. As I, as I was looking over information about you and your profile preparing for this interview, I saw you, you've built quite impressive range of projects across law, business stack. And if I may ask, what would you say was the moments that that really shaped that path for you as a builder? Yeah. So I used to write a lot of articles because I thought I wanted to be a law professor because they have the best job, they work nine months a year and make good 6 figures. But I in 2017, I kind of took time to reflect on the like 100 articles I'd written and how much time I'd spent basically giving my ideas away. And I thought, wait, there must be more productive use of my, you know, time. And I was like, I saw somebody go through an incubator with their startup, a woman I knew. And I was like, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen. I'm a litigator. I didn't even know this existed really. You know, I'd heard of startups, but, and so in 2017, I started starting companies and then I ended up starting the Legal Mentor Network. And since then I've co-founded 5 different companies and been continued to be a very productive partner at Amlaw 100 law firm. So it's been incredible and I got to build the Legal Mentor network, which has just been the gift that keeps on giving. That's amazing. And talking about the Legal Mentor Network, I saw that one of your biggest posts that really made you LinkedIn famous, so to say, was when you put up some information about a, a rejection that you received early on in your career. So what helped you to, you know, keep going on after that that first experience? Yeah, so back in 2002, I was in law school. I was too well and I applied to every one of the top 100 law firms in multiple offices and I got form rejection letters from all 100 like one sentence, thank you for your interest. But all the positions are filled and I threw them all in a box. And about almost 20 years later in 2020, eighteen years later, I found them. And I thought it would be funny to frame the one from my then current law firm where I was a equity partner and put it on my wall in my office. So I framed it and I came in and it was like a Tuesday during COVID. And I've I had some pretty good social media experience, but not really on LinkedIn. I hadn't really done anything on LinkedIn. And I made this LinkedIn post where I took a picture of my rejection letter from my law firm from 2002. And I was in the heading of my obviously bio on LinkedIn. I was a partner at that law firm now. And I said, law students, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. And 5 million people saw it. And that post is what led to directly to the Legal Mentor network now, which is ended up with over 5000 law students and young lawyers from around the world. A lot of LLM students getting free mentorship from lawyers like me all through an online portal. And just this year, we've had 22 events in 12 different cities around the US just bringing together lawyers and law students and encouraging them to mentor, wanted each other. So it's been just an incredible ride. And one of the things that I've learned from it, as I said before, is just help people for no reason, no intention of getting anything from them, and watch what happens. It'll take a while and you you don't expect anything and you don't know what it's going to be, but good things will happen. That's amazing. You love that and a lot of the audience are are really like either law students or people in the early years of their career. So that kind of advice is just OK. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, and if I may go on in the legal mentor network, I must mention the audience and all that. I'm a member myself. And, and just like Brian, I said, people all over the world are in it. So I, I'm currently in Toronto. I, I was first trained in Brazil and I got you connect with a lot of lawyers here in Toronto. So it's not a US only network, but it's really everywhere. And it was just incredible to get some connections there because really. Are people who are willing to. To connect with you so not no kind of cold calling somebody or going on LinkedIn talking to somebody who might not be interested in chatting, but in the other way in the legal mentor network are people who actually said they are willing to give up their time and chat with you and. It's a lot of impressive people. That's the cool thing is it's not just if you go on the website and you look at some of the mentors, and I always recommend if you go sign up on the website to actually e-mail the mentors at their work e-mail address because lawyers aren't good at tech and checking another portal message is just not likely. But yeah, they're like 800 at every big company, every big law firm, small law firms, all different kinds of practice areas, government, NGO's. It's it turns out there are a lot of lawyers out there who are willing to help other younger lawyers. And I just happened to stumble upon them on LinkedIn. That's amazing. And you an incredible bridge for all of them that that way, I guess I could say like mentorship really is at the heart of of your story and what you do, at least in this project. But I'd love to hear a little more about your thoughts on on what good mentorship looks like and what kinds that you will make sure that that your young associates have in that context. Yeah. I mean, mentorship can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Really. I try not to sort of pigeonhole anyone into a specific do this or do that with mentoring. I think really it's all about the relationships and just being able as a young attorney or law student to have an actual real relationship with a lawyer who isn't your boss necessarily or has no specific oversight of you, who's there to help you, and that's it. I mean, honestly, a lot of times, one of the funniest things that happens, and it's almost always, this happens so regularly. It's funny that every lawyer who's been out somewhere between 5 and 15 years, I say you should sign up to be a mentor. And they say I'm not qualified to do that. And I literally laugh at them because I've talked to so many law students. Most of the time what they're asking is pretty basic stuff. And they just need to, you know, someone to listen and someone to help them guide them on their way. And so, but you know, you have for so long when you're young lawyer been the one who can't help anybody and needs help from other people. So getting people to switch that mindset is, is has been challenging, but just know if you're thinking to yourself now, I couldn't be a mentor. That's not right. I love that. For one thing, if you think about it like law students could already help out people who are trying to get into law school or, you know, there's always somebody who is one step behind you in a way, looking into that same profession or that same path. There's always something to share. So I really like that encouragement. You can't lose. When you help other people, that's great, That's great. I'm continuing on here. Brian, what, what are some of your thoughts on, you know, top recommendations for lost students listening to today's podcast and young associates as well. So we already talked about the importance of, you know, giving back and, and staying connected, talking to people. What are some other things that you would say, maybe to your younger self or things that even you did in your career early on that that you think really set you up for success? Yeah, I mean, it's what I recommend is a pretty rigid, that rigid, but pretty specific program, basically when you're looking for a job as a young lawyer. And it's based on 2 facts that most people don't understand. The first one is that you're going to be most able to get the job you want in the city you want three to five years after you graduate, not right when you graduate. And then the other one is that 75 to 80% of the jobs that you're going to get in your life are going to come from people you know or have met, not randomly applying online. And so when you put these two things together, the strategy is pretty clear. And that is you should a not just try to get the job you want coming out of law school, you should think about what other jobs could I get that would give me training for the job I want or whatever and one other. So what I recommend is that you pick five cities where you're willing to live for two years, not your whole life. And literally your job is to get on as many zooms as you can with lawyers in those cities who do what you do. That's it. Not necessarily people that can hire you. In fact, it's better to try to talk to people who you don't think can hire you because they will be the ones that refer you to somebody else who can. They will be the ones who circumstances change and we'll end up hiring you later. But if you're methodical about it and you think about and use geography to your advantage, notice you're in Toronto, you're not in New York, you're not in LA. I often tell people when you're picking your five cities, make sure three of them are not New York, DC, LA, and Chicago. Because 70% of all law students who are graduating from law school want to go to New York, DC, LA, Chicago. And so obviously the pile of resumes in those places is going to be a lot higher. So that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to go to one of those cities. It just means maybe you should have some safety cities like you have safety schools and you should think about the law schools that are around those cities because lawyers are still regional. And so for example, I hope you're not, nobody's from Florida listening to this, but the state of Florida has 12 law schools in the highest ranked is University of Florida. So if you're applying to the same big law firm that has an office in Boston, NY or Tampa, which one do you think you're going to get more interest from? It's this Tampa office. And so you can use geography to your advantage. And if you're methodical about trying to meet with people and generally to do that sounds hard, How do I meet with all these lawyers? And the answer is easy. You spam them and you ask for advice, not a job. Don't use the word job or say anything about a job until you get on a Zoom. Ask for advice, advice, advice, and just keep doing it and it will work. It might take you hundreds of Zooms, but I'm telling you it will. Work that's incredible. And as I was thinking here, this very much applies to those people wanting a job in the legal field. But then once you enter into the job market, you're, you're in a firm, it feels like that doesn't change much because your thoughts to the other lawyers, you're talking to the clients. Yeah. And you become, that's why you become. Well, it shouldn't change, but it often does, because what happens is that people get hired. They go to a law firm, and then they think their only job is to make sure that the law firm partners are happy, which is their main job. But they forget that they need that. This is a relationship game. This entire industry, in almost every industry is about relationships, ultimately. And if you're in your office for 10 years as an associate, billing hours and not talking to anyone except the partners you work for, it's going to be really hard when you have to transition to go find work. So keep talking to people, keep meeting people, keep meeting lawyers or professionals, Just get known, be nice to people, help them, and good things will happen. It's counterintuitive and hard for some people to believe, but it's. True, fantastic to to wrap up today's episode here, if I could ask you as well as you, you know, your own journey when you were, you know, looking into different places and all of that. You said that usually some of the jobs you have in your career will come through those connections. Was that some of your experiences? Well, did you you know in the? The only job I could get out of law school was at a law firm where I knew someone. And then after that I did get a job randomly spamming people in a city and meeting with people. And then my third job, a recruiter called me when I was in that three to five year window. And that's how I ended up at Foley and Lardner where I made partner. And then now I've been a big law partner since. So this it happened to me, but it turns out it actually is a pretty good strategy to get where you want to go and your career in the legal field. I didn't know it at the time, but it certainly has been a helpful has been helpful to me. Incredible. I'm sure it will be helpful to anybody who who really tries it out. And I appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today. Brian, thank you so much. Yeah, no problem. And if anybody wants a free copy of my book, I gave it away in a LinkedIn post and it tells you which states. I have law schools that aren't very highly ranked. There's all kinds of stuff in there that's useful. I've got spam emails that you can use to get people to meet with you. So anyway, that's free. The price is right. So everybody should look at that. And I know you probably have a lot of international students and there's two chapters in that book dealing with just the question of A, should you get an LM and B, if you are, how should you, how can you leverage that into a job in the US So that hopefully be helpful for some of your listeners. Absolutely. That's awesome. So if you're listening in, make sure that you go follow Brian on LinkedIn and all social media and also sign up should the legal mentor Network. Yeah, thanks for having me. Well, thank you and thank you all for tuning into today's episode and. We'll see you. On the next one. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode. This episode was sponsored by Contender. Check them out at contenderllc.com.