The Power of Narrative, Proactive Career Strategy, and the Human Connection with José Bottazzo

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to interview José Bottazu. He's Director of Client Services at Forge Recruitment. I really appreciate you making the time to come on the podcast today, José. excited to hear about your career and your role now helping lawyers, senior in-house counsel to get placements into the workforce and, you know, really just helping with the legal profession overall. Thank you so much for making the time to come in here today. Thank you, Claudio. It's a pleasure. I really appreciate the invitation. Very happy to be here. Absolutely. And to start off the podcast today, I'd love to ask you to tell us a little bit more about yourself. I know you have a really interesting career, you know, journeying from Practicing law abroad and then building your own practice, becoming a partner there, and eventually transitioning your career into legal recruiting. Yes. Yes. So I'm a lawyer from Brazil. I was called to the bar in 2013. Very early on, I started my career in employment law. One thing led to another, referrals, clients coming back, and all of a sudden I had a very busy volume, high-volume employment law litigation practice, a little bit of commercial litigation and advisory work. And very, you know, early in my career, I got the opportunity to get some sort of exposure to complex employment matters in Brazil, such as catastrophic workplace accidents, employment misclassification disputes for, you know, the big telecoms, constructive dismissal claims and wrongful terminations. It was a whole bunch of those. Very, very interesting, very intense. And I started noticing some trends and interesting trends in my practice. And I think the biggest challenge of my corporate clients, at least, or at least the larger ones, were not necessarily with the law. So they understand, they know the law, but the issue ended up in the courtroom. It was something, I think, bigger. And I started to investigate and I realized that it was perhaps a lack of good HR practices or perhaps an HR function that would have power or authority to perhaps make those policies in place to be valid somehow. Like, why would you treat a particular contract or employee in a way that, you know, that end up in court? Because the whole system, I think, was actually organized in order for them to have lawyers who go to court and then they rinse and repeat. And this basically was the business model that they were running. And I was, you know, just curious. As lawyers, we are curious beings and we want to learn and get more information. So I started investigating a little bit more about organization effectiveness and HR as a whole. And I was reading a lot of stuff and I came about a very interesting book from an author. His name is Claudio Fernandes Araoz. His book is about Great People Decisions. It's a very nice, interesting title. It is about HR, but it's more specialized. It's about recruitment and how would you change the reality of organization by recruiting the right human capital. And there were several examples in this book on how to bring those brains or talents in at executive level that actually opened up my, my, my, my eyes for something bigger. I realized that, okay, so I'm doing here litigation in Brazil. I'm an employment lawyer, but there's something out there that perhaps is a little bit bigger and I can continue to perhaps promote change and make good things as a lawyer for lawyers in the legal system, perhaps not as a litigator, but perhaps as an aggregator or someone who brings people together to solve problems. Right. And it's all about leadership. So if you have a good leader who thinks about HR policies and the economic— this different group of people or parties or collective, you know, representative groups such as employers and employees, perhaps we can transform the society from within. And it really kept me thinking, okay, so how should I go about— should I pursue this? And obviously because of my practice, you know, it was like roughly 8 years. I became a partner at some point. I joined my firm with, you know, boutique specialized, high-regarded firm in Goiás, which was my state that I was practicing. According to Chambers Brazil, they're ranked number 1 litigators in my state. And I got to that point that, okay, so I get everything. Like every lawyer, they want to get to this point. So you have your book of business, you become a partner, and this is it. Then I realized that a big portion of being a lawyer, it's obviously you have to have the technical skills and know what you're doing, obviously. But this is perhaps, let's say, 30% of the whole work, especially in private practice. But the other side of it is you are a business person. You're running a business and it needs to be sustainable. And by running a business, obviously it's a skill that you can transfer everywhere because it's people skills. It's soft skills. So you're doing BD, you have confidence, you're being assertive, you're helping people move forward and further. If it is advising clients with legal matters, if you have that stakeholder mentality, you can replicate that everywhere you go. So it's the formula, I think. So I really took a bold approach and talked to myself and thought, I'm going to make a change. I went to work in an executive level, perhaps leveraging the legal expertise I have and the people skills I have to promote transformations elsewhere. And coupled with a dream to have some sort of international experience, I came to Canada, came to Toronto. I had a few other options like UK and Milan. I knew it. That it needed to be some sort of work, a world-class city, cosmopolitan, you know, diverse city for me to have a good impact. I wanted to work with the big players and big organizations, so I knew I needed to put myself in that type of market. So that's why Toronto came about. It's a fantastic city, and I came here in 2019 with all that background. I came here to study and got back to school, so I decided to take a A postgrad at George Brown College. It's a human resource management course to kick off my career. And early on during the co-op, I was very lucky. Randstad, a huge staffing company, they reached out to me and said, oh, I can see that you were a lawyer and you're studying HR. Have you ever thought about starting a legal recruitment career? And I said, oh my goodness, yes, yes, actually that's my plan. And a lot of discussions happened. Obviously I proposed a business plan and we had a fantastic year and then another year and 4 years in, I was ready to take on another opportunity with Adecco, the direct, I think, competitor. I wanted to broaden my search a little bit, get more complex mandates such as partners and senior associates. And that led me to join Robert Walters after a year. Robert Walters, again, it's an international recruitment firm. They're based in the UK. And I was only expanding my practice, my networking, my connections. and the way I navigate this very conservative and interesting legal market here in Canada. Then last year, December, I made another bold decision, but I think it was the right one. I wanted to connect or perhaps join a Canadian-owned company. I decided that my base is here in Toronto. I want to work in this market. I know the Canadian market has lots of potential and I wanted to really specialize in this market. And then I joined Forge Recruitment as a Director of Client Services. And I'm leading senior search, searches across Canada, partnership and M&A between firms as well, and also in-house legal executive opportunities. And that's my trajectory so far. So it's all about reinventing yourself, but also keeping some sort of idea of who you are and the skills you have and how you can actually deploy them everywhere you go. I'm still a lawyer and also a businessman or person and I'm just moving forward. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you making the time to come on the podcast and to share some of your thoughts with us. There's a lot of questions about, you know, legal recruitment and I find it especially interesting when someone has the opportunity to see the business from inside, right? It's one thing to just go to college and to learn about HR practices without leaving the industry, but you definitely lived and breathed how those decisions impact your life and those of those around you as well, not only as an associate, but as a partner and as a businessman, as you said. I'm curious, you know, when you, when you're helping out candidates nowadays and also of course, you know, their future employers, how that experience from, from private practice, really from the inside, has helped you to advise those candidates. Well, not only it gives me some sort of perspective and understanding of what's happening with a particular talent. And when I'm having a conversation with a particular company or firm for a position, I kind of try and understand, okay, so why this situation came about? Like, why is this happening? Why are you moving, Mr. Talent? And why, Mr. Client, you looking for someone specifically? So I think that's the first angle because I understand the constraints, the challenges, and the pains that the client or the talents are actually experiencing. And it's good for me not only have some sort of empathy, but understand the core and better perhaps represent them, either clients or talent, in telling their story. Because it's not only the candidate that has to tell the story, but also the company. Like, why would you like to work with me and what's happening with my current organization? And what can I actually offer you long-term? Right? Because we don't want to do this every year. It's very expensive. So how about we think about the future? It puts me in an interesting position because I often can, you know, coach and provide some sort of advice to candidates by simply, you know, realizing or having a discussion about their function. If you join a firm in private practice, as I mentioned, you are a business person, a business unit of yourself. So you have to have some sort of sustainability in what you're doing. You have to be accountable and you have to understand that what makes the difference from you and perhaps a senior lawyer is that the same legal document or work you're producing, they might do Shorter with less hours. I'm not saying necessarily that's what the managing partner or the partner is going to actually bill the client. This is a different story, but for them as an organization, okay, so this senior lawyer, they can produce a massive amount of good documents or legal documents at a pace that's obviously, I know they're basically paying from himself or herself. So it's just very sustainable and we want to have that particular associate with us. Right. So I can put all of that in perspective. And another thing is, I think I mentioned that you have to have that stakeholder mentality. Like if you're, if you're a lawyer, either in-house or private practice, and you're representing a client, I know in private practice, it's about specialization and depth. I know what I can do is very narrow to my client, therefore very expensive, but what actually my client is trying to accomplish. What's my client's business? How I can actually make an action here, even though it's very narrow, that eventually is going to enable my client to move further and forward with their business. If you're in an in-house position, I think it's more obvious that you have that kind of mentality, but even as a lawyer, as external counsel, that's going to certainly provide the conditions for you to create a stronger relationship with this particular client. They're always going to come back. So this is, you know, the type of conversations and interactions I have. And a few, a few years ago, I had a junior lawyer. Curiously enough, they were an internationally trained lawyer with lots of experience in another jurisdiction, and they were trying to get some sort of a hold of the Canadian market, you know, got called to the bar, was, I believe, with 2 or 3 years in, and it was kind of struggling in a sense that I need mentorship. I need someone to help me to, you know, guide my business and, you know, get the exposure that I need. And with That conversation and sharing a little bit of the experience I had as a partner, I said, how about you change the narrative? And they were working on corporate commercial and food. Bring some clients in corporate commercial, get some contracts or any legal work that you can actually do. Do that and you're going to have your tiny book of business, but it's yours. It's your relationship. It's your business. You're billing directly them and you have the exposure you need. And then using that small Book of business and platform that you are, and instead of you actually asking for mentorship and opportunity in other firms, you ask for a different platform. You flip a little bit the conversation like, "Hey, Mr. Partner or Managing Partner, I do have a book of business. I have experience in this and that. So that's the amount, and I want a different platform so I can scale my business up." A year and two months or something after this conversation, obviously it was a lot of work. They end up finding another opportunity in another firm with a better platform, and as far as I know, they're very happy and they're you know moving. their business forward. And it was very, very nice to see. Obviously it was an indirect way that I ended up helping this candidate. But again, it's something that we did it together. Obviously it was a collaboration and then, you know, kind of a coach, I think, opportunity, but it's something that I could add that ended up helping them. That's fantastic. And, you know, something that I always try to make sure to bring up is that A lot of my listeners right now in the podcast are young professionals or early career lawyers who are, you know, building their careers. So it really means a lot that you are making your time to come here because I believe it's, it's a public that really is always craving for this kind of information. And you've been on both sides of the table, you know, first as a lawyer building a career, now as someone who helps those lawyers make those important career decisions. Are there a few lessons that maybe you wish, you know, lawyers understood earlier in their careers? Now that you've seen quite a bit of both sides of the table? Of course. First of all, you have to have a strategy like early on. Like if you're going to invest significant time and money, you know, required to go to law school, get certified and practice. So you need to know where you want to go, or at least have an idea. You don't have to necessarily, okay, so this is exactly it. Like it's very hard for you to actually predict, but you need to have some sort of north or an idea where you want to go. And throughout your career, you're going to collect and gather not only experience, but more information. So you can make those deliberate career decisions on where you want to go. You have to obviously understand that private practice, I think you just mentioned, it's about depth and specialization. So you're going to do something very narrow. You're going to rinse and repeat. You're going to do it extremely well, that you're going to be very expensive, but very good in what you're doing. Whereas if in-house roles require, require obviously, you know, a broader approach, a little bit more generalist, I think, angle. So if you want to build your profile to eventually end up in an in-house position, you have to know, early on that you have to obviously master corporate commercial transactions, AI technology, labor employment, construction, and, you know, several different ways so you can position yourself as a high-value asset to any organization. If you're too narrow in a specific niche, you have to be aware, okay, so who are the players in my niche for in-house opportunity? So let's say I'm working corporate commercial stuff, I'm doing, you know, mostly investment, perhaps securities, corporate law. Okay, so who are the private equities or the hedge funds and investment funds around there that eventually after 8 years of practice I can actually make a move? So you can narrow down, you know, a few potential players and you work on your career by making connections with them. It could be potential clients or, you know, paving the future in order for you to make a move. So this is all about strategy. So You cannot do things in your career after investing a lot of money and time randomly. So why are you taking the time to connect with that particular prospect? Why are you doing that particular type of legal work? Where this is going to take you? Like, what's your plan? If you have that, obviously it's very hard. Sometimes you're going to miss, you're going to fail. That's fine. But if you have some sort of idea, every action you take, it's closer to The goal you have. Fantastic. I love what you said right now, you know, about having that strategy, thinking about your career early on and taking that into consideration because from what I see, I might be wrong in this observation, but I believe that a lot of lawyers would be only starting to think about their careers at a point when they're a little bit more unhappy or specifically looking for a change. So are there a few things that lawyers should be doing proactively to build those long-term career opportunities? You know, we love the idea of being intentional, of having a strategy, but what does that look like a little more? You did say, you know, build that profile, that portfolio, the kind of work you want to do, the kind of client you want to maybe approach early on and pave the way. Are there a few other things that you'd recommend? Absolutely. And I love that question. And like many lawyers only start thinking about their careers when they are unhappy. And I think that's a true statement. And it's kind of paradoxical because lawyers, they are, you know, by nature risk-averse. So perhaps some lawyers, they get to a point that they're unhappy in their position because they're trying to avoid risk. I'm not going to talk with that recruiter. I'm not going to go for lunch with that particular partner that's trying to poach me. I'm not going to connect with my peer and discuss a topic that I think would be very, very interesting because I have to, you know, do something else. I don't want to take the risk. And that's the paradox. You don't take the risk and you ended up in a position that you are unhappy and then you have a problem, which is very risky for you. And believe it or not, if you're not thinking about making a move, and I get this a lot, you send messages to lawyers and, you know, it's how you approach them and they usually say, no, thank you. I'm not ready to make a move. Okay. I understand you're perhaps satisfied and happy in your position, but I'm pretty sure that your employer is thinking about making a move about you. If they find someone perhaps cheaper or perhaps they can deliver what you're doing better, faster, or bring, you know, more revenue to a business, right? They're all thinking about profit. I'm so sorry, that's how it is. So why shouldn't you be thinking about opportunities or having conversations? So I think doing something proactive, I think that's it. The proactiveness, it's— you have to be open. Again, you are a lawyer, but ultimately you're a business person. You have to be open. If it is a recruiter sending you a random message, okay, let's have a chat. You never know. Recruitment firm, if you think about it, it could be a potential client. It can work both ways. You never know. If it is a colleague, a peer that wants to connect, like, hey, I want to have some sort of understanding on what you're doing. Like, I'm from real estate transactional work and you're doing some very cool stuff in the litigation portion of it or construction litigation. I want to know more. Connect, dedicate that time. It's pretty sure that, you know, even though you're very busy, you might as well have time for a conversation with a A partner is trying to poach you. No, I'm not interested. I'm working with XYZ partner. I'm happy at my firm, but connect with them anyways. Perhaps you're sharing the same clientele. Perhaps they have business that they can pass on. Perhaps you need an extra chair, someone, you know, in the other firm that can help your case in arbitration, I don't know, trial. And you already have a connection and it's not through your partner or other colleagues. It's your connection that you make and the relationship that you can take on. You know, about risk and the perceived risk about your persona or your professional self. So some lawyers, I think they will think, okay, so if I'm so connected and I'm doing, you know, roundtables, I'm talking with everybody, perhaps my boss is going to think I'm a flight risk. Okay. This could also be true, but if you are, if you have visibility, if you're visible, you might as well start getting or start being desired as well. Like your employer is going to try to retain you. So it's a very interesting way to to perhaps approach and think about that. So don't wait to be unhappy. Make good connections and build up your own network and you're never going to feel stuck. If you're stuck, yes. Yes. So then you're in a tricky spot and that's a risk that you want to avoid. Absolutely. I'm curious now, you know, you mentioned quite a few very, very interesting points, but as you know, someone who positions, it is my understanding that you probably talk with a few candidates. A few of them might say that they're interested, but it doesn't mean necessarily that you'd recommend every single one. to a specific company, for example. So when you're evaluating those profiles or those resumes, are there a few factors that tend to separate, you know, candidates who stand out and who are, you know, in a way easy to recommend versus those who might be struggling to advance their careers and who, you know, who maybe don't make it easy for you to be their advocate? Well, this is all about the compelling narrative or the stories. It's, you know, they're telling about themselves and It doesn't matter if you, if your career takes a twist, if you worked in a firm for 6 months and something happened, you know, candidates, they have that feeling, oh my God, my resume is not fine. I, you know, I jumped a lot. If you have a good story and a reason and someone to advocate on your behalf and tell that story, that's what you need. And nowadays, especially for the younger lawyers trying to enter in the market, you have an online application, you submit your resume, you perhaps try to connect with someone that might be the hiring manager and silence. Right? So you don't don't have feedback. Sometimes it's very hard for you to pierce through this technology wall, and because everything is so black and white, and it's about the resume, the technical skills, and at the end of the day, everyone looks the same. So to differentiate yourself, obviously, if you if you start early by having a plan and a strategy, you're probably going to be doing you know something outstanding that candidates do, and I think they they kind of ended up. up being a little bit different on paper without the story, which is being involved in perhaps pro bono work very early on, you know, doing those legal writing contests, which is pretty cool. Student associations, you know, during the university, perhaps you were involved in any interesting dynamic there. So this is, this is standout, right? But compelling narrative, like telling your story, I think that's, that, that's everything. If you were able to connect with hiring manager, perhaps go to coffee or let them know like, hey, this is why I'm here. And that's, that's what I'm doing. That's how I'm going to add value to your business. You're probably going to stand out and having perhaps someone to advocate on your behalf, someone who already crossed that bridge and have some sort of connection and have the attention of their hiring managers, such as recruiters, for instance, or even your colleagues, your peers, senior lawyers, you know, around your network, that helps. That helps a lot. So I think that's, that's what I can say. When I'm obviously having conversations with lawyers, I don't put any lawyer to any positions. I think good recruiters, they don't just flip resumes. That's, that's not what what recruiters or what we're trying to add. Like, our value is time first. So I already took the time to go for dinner, coffee, you know, eye-to-eye, face-to-face conversation with this particular lawyer. All the checks you need to do. Okay, so went to school, it's true, have the transcripts and everything. It's a real person, it's not AI. All of that that you need to do. So, okay, so I'm representing a human being with a very interesting background. And then you have to assess whether or not that person would fit in a particular company based on their motivations, values, cultures and all of that, you need to sort it out. And I think that's the fun part of my profession. Obviously you have limited information. Sometimes it's very hard for you to get those pieces, bits and pieces of information. And with time you kind of hone your skills to make assertive decisions around that bits and pieces of information. And whenever a partner receives an anonymized summary of a particular profile I'm representing, they know. They know like, okay, so this recruiter, he understands my business. He understands the pains right now. Somehow he knows I have exploding practice. Someone laughed, how does this guy know? And he's providing me with a solution. It's exactly what I need. He's going to work with XYZ clients already. That's the billing rate. That's the salary. I need to have a conversation with this recruiter and with the, uh, with the candidate. You know, it's the way to start a conversation and to pass the narrative and the good story about the candidates forward, right? Yeah. Fantastic. No, I really appreciate you also clarifying that role because I think that there's a few questions out there on how does that actually work. I love what you just mentioned about, you know, the details of how to go about it, of building really that relationship with a recruiter. You mentioned about the time you'd spent with, you know, either the candidate or the firm that is hiring. Another thing that you had highlighted earlier was a lot about, you know, being a business person, but also talking about the people skills or the soft skills. So beyond those technical legal skills that might be important, or that, you know, term sheet of how many deals that person has done and how much those deals are evaluated at, you know, beyond those really quantifiable things. Are there a few qualities that you see in lawyers who are successful and that progress into, you know, senior associate roles, partner roles, any, any kind of executive or leadership roles that maybe it is not one that it's obviously, you know, quantified? Absolutely. What I've seen in the past, based on all the information I gathered and experiences in placements, the successful ones, those that you can see the progression happening, They're forward-thinking. If you have an issue, a problem, either if you're representing your client or perhaps within your workplace, always think forward, not backwards. Don't fight, forward. And you immediately see that person as a leader. You feel like, okay, so I'm gonna actually listen to what this person is saying. They're usually very assertive. They're very confident and they always move forward. And that's how you solve problems as a business person. As a lawyer and patience. Senior lawyers, they're in a very tricky spot. They're on the verge of something big. They either going to become a partner or start, you know, partnership track, perhaps income partnership. And then perhaps they're going to be offered equity. I don't know. They could be on the verge of that situation. Or even so, they might be thinking about moving in-house. Perhaps if you're a senior associate, depending on the firm you are, perhaps going to land not as a GC. So let's see if it is a big company as well, you perhaps start as associate general counsel or even senior counsel to a big corporation, you're going to make a large move and you have to understand that you did everything right. You're billing your hours. You have perhaps a book of business. You have a reputation. You've been working in this space for perhaps 7, 8 years. You need partnership because you know the colleague in another firm that went to school with you is already a partner and oh my God, is this going to happen with me? Patience, because there's a lot of variables that you cannot Control. Equity, space, it's not for everyone. Like there's no way, it's impossible, right? So to get a piece of the pie of a legal practice, it's limited. So even if you're doing everything right, you're there, you have the skills, everything is right, perhaps you don't have space. So what I'm trying to tell you is you have to be patient. So assertiveness, be confident, know what you're doing, obviously, and have a little bit of patience. And obviously with all the networking, you know, being open and having conversations, perhaps you can identify opportunities elsewhere. or somewhere that you never thought before. Very, very interesting. Thank you for clarifying that point. You did mention a few times in our conversation today about the whole, you know, idea of aspiring to become a partner, but you also talked about the importance of being a business person in a way, doing business development and so forth. The transition from associate to partner seems to be one that requires a different mindset or one that might even require a change of environment. Are there a few things that lawyers that you talk with misunderstand about that Yeah, I don't think at this point, at this level, lawyers would misunderstand anything necessarily, but perhaps they can overlook a few factors, macroeconomic or macro, you know, details, because obviously they're doing— they're so immersed in what they're doing about specialization, they don't have time to actually take a breath and see what's happening around them because they're so busy doing important stuff. But there's a generational clash happening here. So I think that predominantly the majority of the partners that holds, you know, equity, perhaps in North America, are baby boomers, still Gen X, I believe. So they're a little bit more experienced. They've been around for quite a while. Recently, because of pandemic, especially here in Canada, there's some sort of acceleration of those retirements that happened. And even people that regret it, they retired and they immediately, they came back. And in the legal space, that happened in both ways. What I'm trying to say is that those who have the relationships and control of large book of business and obviously equity of those firms, they either about to retire, they're retiring, or some of them are returning in order to, you know, fulfill the role of actually controlling the book of business. Because it's very, very, very risky for a law firm if they lose a senior partner. What's going to happen with that book of business and that relationship? It might as well vanish. It might as well go to the competitors or just scatter around the legal market. So out of a sudden, okay, so we're a full-size firm. we have a construction litigation practice, partner retires, boom, we don't have a construction litigation practice anymore. We have to start from scratch. So what I'm trying to say is that the generational clash obviously kind of showcases how important it is, the book of business, the relationship with clients, and the power over that, and how to generate the business, and how patience is important. Very, very interesting. As you brought that reflection forward, you do advise know, organizations, law firms own their talent strategy and really their succession planning in many ways. What are firms really looking for when they evaluate a senior lawyer, when they evaluate potential partners that are coming into the business? You just talked about a specific detail that we should maybe take into consideration when you're thinking about, you know, institutional clients that are not very highly mobile. Right? It would be very hard to bring it along. What are some of your thoughts on that, Sam? So again, they're a business, they're running a business and they need to be efficient, obviously. So they need someone to fill the gap. As I said, there's senior lawyers retiring. The middle management or the mid-senior lawyers, they already feel burned out. It's a lot of work. Even partners, they don't have perhaps the flexibility that they wish they have. Everyone is thinking about how we're going to have some sort of a better and productive platform. Are we going to invest in AI? Are we going to be bringing legal tech? Me and a few firms, they're already doing that in order for them to have some sort of better workflows to enable their business to go a little bit smarter. They need to be ready to take on the responsibility of managing not necessarily their relationship because I think partners, they wouldn't just allow that to happen. I don't think it makes sense. Lots of years of collaboration with that particular account, but someone that can understand the client. The business, the industry, the relationship between that particular general counsel or executive with the partner and how you should service that account in a way that not only they're going to pay whatever you're going to bill them and solve their problem, but also generate more business. So you have to bring credibility instantly and there's no better way to bring credibility with obviously the people skills that require you to do so, but also the technical expertise. So that's why sometimes it's very, very hard to find a particular talent, because at this level they need someone who can hit the ground running. There is minimal time for learning or perhaps change. So if you're coming from different industry or practice, it's not gonna cut it, it's not gonna work. So they're looking for the solution instantly and someone who actually can bring on extensive knowledge to take on I wanted to ask you about in-house roles. So you did mention earlier about being in-house has a lot to do with preparing yourself to be a bit more of a generalist, knowing a little bit of corporate, a little bit of employment, really being able to understand a business as a whole. Is there something else that you'd like to share with us about, you know, what lawyers maybe should think about or understand about in-house roles? What that transition requires and even, you know, if there are specific skills that are required to succeed in that. That's a, that's a very good question. And I think it's a question all senior lawyers perhaps are asking, should I go in-house? What does it look like to be in-house? So first you have to accept the fact that depending on the firm, depending on your current arrangement, you're not going to make the same money, but the trade-off, it's a little bit more structure. You're going to have your perhaps 9 to 5, a little bit more than that, but you're going to have the flexibility you need, perhaps you carry on other interests in your life. And it can also be very fulfilling if you really like the industry and you understand the values and you have like the same passion perhaps as the particular company or brand or whatever you're doing. If you believe in it, I think it makes a little bit more, more sense. And depending on the level of specialization that this particular profile has, and once you make a move in-house, you're going to feel the change of that you're not going to be doing that narrow, highly specialized practice any longer. It's going to be a little bit more broad, very open. You might as well be working on a privacy issue, risk, perhaps compliance. And then the other day you have some employment and labor stuff to deal with. And then the other day, depending on the type of business you're doing, it's construction litigation, or, you know, you're running some title searches because, you know, someone, a stakeholder wants you to do a transaction and you just need to advise them like, hey, don't buy this property because of this, you know, there's lanes here and we have to clear this out before. It could be various things and you have to be prepared for that. So if you're ready to take on, on a very exciting, because every day can be something different. Amazing. And, you know, a final thing that I really wanted to ask you a little bit about specifically, you know, you had this opportunity to live through an international career transition. And I think that that has become somewhat of a common ground in the legal profession in Canada as well. There's lots of internationally trained lawyers who are building their careers in Canada, and I feel like there's a few things that might come to mind here. One of them is that a few internationally trained lawyers might struggle with communicating the value of their previous experience. So I'm curious, you know, with your experience, with seeing people doing this before, are there a few ways that one can better position their background and skills in this market? Yes. Yes. And the advice I do is you don't have to over-explain your experience. You don't have, let's say you coming from civil law system, you don't have to explain the differences and how can you leverage whatever. No, trust yourself, trust your people skills and apply those instantly because the people skills, it's easier to be perceived. And then the technical part of it comes along. So you don't have to prove anything. I know it's hard because you're trying to get a position, so you have to explain yourself. in a certain way. But my point is, you are a lawyer. It's another jurisdiction, but you, you are holding the rule of law, or you did. You, you have an important role in the judicial system already. So you are a lawyer. You don't have to explain to others that you are a lawyer. You are. Just apply perhaps the people aspect of it. As I mentioned before, I coached and supported an internationally trained lawyer to make the transition. And just to change a little bit the narrative, because when this person came to one of those opportunities in and said, okay, even though they wanted to have some sort of support and join a group with mentorship so they can carry on with their career, but the conversation was, I have clients, Canadian clients that need my help and I need a better platform in order for me to service them. Would you help me to help my clients? And obviously it's like, okay, so this person, okay, the technical skill, I don't know, perhaps in 6 months I'm going to know, but I know from the onset, they're connected, they have business, they know how to carry on conversation, they know how to qualify a potential client, they're confident. Look at that. And I want this person in my team. Why not? So I think that's one thing I can say. Why don't you apply the strategies and the skills you already applied before? Because if you're here in another market reinventing or starting over and getting a new certification, chances are you were successful So it's just, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Amazing. Thank you so much for making the time for that. To wrap up today's episode, I wanted to ask you if there are any kinds of trends or changes that you think lawyers should be paying attention to as they prepare for their future careers. Are there a few things that you'd like to send us off with today? Yes. And I really love that final question. I think that the biggest trend, it's technology, it's legal tech. And they're here. We're already experiencing. It's not something of the future. So obviously, the Canadian market is a little bit more protected than the United States, for instance, in that sense. So but here, legal departments and even firms—they—they—you know—using softwares like Harvey or Co-Counsel or whatever in order for them to have some sort of better productivity, better workflows, and producing perhaps legal documents a little bit more faster, or even using. Contract management tools like DocuSign and et cetera, in order for them to produce and get signatures faster. So this is a trend for you to keep an eye on. And private equity companies actually knocking on the doors in law firms in order for them to have some sort of equity of their business. Again, in Canada, this is not a reality, but in the United States, we heard a few news here and there that a few firms are working around the fact that even if you're not a lawyer and you cannot own the legal business and have, you know, exploit the profits of it, but what about administration of a law firm? What about the marketing piece of a law firm? What about the logistics or any other aspects of the law firm that makes a law firm function that is not necessarily related to legal? And then you have private equities actually getting a portion of it or running firms From that angle, and obviously leaving the legal part of it outside of that. So all of that to say that private equity is also entering the market to compete for space, for equity and space. So, and some legal techs obviously leveraging all of that in order to get a piece of the market. So what I would say is with all this technology, AI, and the implementations of those better workflows and, you know, automations and everything. thing. Never before, I think, the human component, human connection, it's, it's been so important like this. So the emotional component of someone making a decision about who you should be working with, even though you have all the metrics, you have the objectives, okay, so this is it, I have a bid, I have 3 law firms, at the end of the day, there is an emotional component there that you're gonna factor in. I trust that lawyer. I trust that brand. I trust that, I don't know, legal advice, for instance. So this is going to carry a lot of weight. So in a world of AI tech, be as human as possible. Connect with people. If you can do some, I don't know, community involvement. Have you ever been to your local farmers market? Have you tried to work with them? Help those business owners to start up cool business? Are you doing something, you know, different like this? Like you're connecting with your community? Are you giving back to them? Are you actually looking around and see what's the impact of my profession to my fellow citizens? Like, is this happening? Can I feel it? Pretty sure anyone, you know, aficionado that really likes legal work and in this professional, I think they would, they would like to actually think about it, right? Okay, how can I be more human and, and, and, and make it a difference at the same time? So I think that's my, my take Keep an eye on tech, AI, private equity, but yourself and connect with your clients. I love that. Thank you so much for making the time to come on the show and share this incredible, uh, both information as well as piece of advice, José. It's much, much appreciated. Thank you. Thank you, Claudio. Awesome. And thank you all so much for taking the time to tune into today's episode, and we'll see you on the next one.