The Entrepreneurial Leap, Strategic Lawyering, and Human Skills with Daniel Maffessoni Passinato Diniz

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I'm honored to have here my friend Daniel Mafessoni Passinato Diniz. He's an incredible corporate lawyer who works in Brazil, but also internationally. He specializes in M&A, capital markets, and arbitration. He's the co-founder of his law firm, and he also goes beyond, you know, standard legal advice to help entrepreneurs navigate the unspoken pressures of business decisions and risk management. So thank you so much for being in the show today, Daniel. Thank you, man. It is a great pleasure to be here. And honestly, speaking in English about my professional journey feels like an important milestone for me because I started studying English only when I was 24. Absolutely. And to start us off, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about yourself, about your journey in law, and even starting your own firm. Yes. So I am a Brazilian attorney and professor of law. My practice is focused, as you said, on arbitration, M&A transactions, corporate matters. My journey into law was not that straightforward because early in law school, I would like to be a judge, but at the end, I would like to be a lawyer, but I had no experience. I was also an entrepreneur, so I would love to have my own law firm. And then I applied first for some jobs at boutique law firms for my first two years of practice, and then I launched my own law firm. It was a tough experience, but it was a reward experience. Fantastic. And I was happy to learn that your firm is just turning 10 years now. So that's incredible. What a big and important milestone that you'll be celebrating pretty soon. Yes. It's our 10th anniversary, and we are celebrating it a lot because, you know, in the legal industry, you have to stay in the game. It's a long-term game, so you have to stay in the game, and you have to be realistic at it. You mentioned quickly about being an entrepreneur, being in law school, and starting your firm. When you look at the positioning of your firm now, was there a specific gap in the legal market that you were trying to solve or fill at the time? At first, I had no clients, no money, and it was a nip of faith. You know, more than simply practicing law, I wanted to create a legal environment that combined high-level expertise with a strong business mindset because I could realize early in my career that I could navigate really well at the intersection between business and law. And it was really nice because clients responded very positively to that approach, and I could gain traction and more clients. And beyond that, I decided to build a fully cloud-based law firm. It was in 2016. The traditional firms still operated back then in a very conservative way. And when COVID hit in 2020, I was fully prepared to still serve clients, and we gained traction. We were taking some more market share within Brazil and within our area. It was a really nice experience. Amazing. So, looking back at some of those early days of building your firm, you mentioned the lack of clients, resources, and really being a nip of faith, but what are some of the challenges that you faced? Was there any specific shift that had to happen slowly? I definitely can say sales skills. You have to become a great salesman because, you know, in my case, one of the biggest learning curves was sales. Because as a lawyer, we rarely know how to sell our services, to sell ourselves, professionally speaking. Because in my case, I was offering high value and sophisticated legal work. So you have to build trust. You have to be liable for your clients. So, as I started from scratch, I had to learn it because if you don't have money, you don't have nothing. You know, you have to think a lot like an entrepreneur. You can be like the best lawyer, technically speaking, but if you don't know how to convince your client that you are the best lawyer to deal with he or she or his or her. I saw that you work closely with companies in their complex transactions and also in governance. So I'm curious if you know, how does running your own law firm change your perspective when advising clients in those specific points? I can bring to this conversation specifically the strategic mindset that a lawyer needs to have. Many lawyers operate only at the operational level. To hire you as a strategic advisor, the client brings you a task, not a decision to be. If a client calls you and says, Claudio, do I have to file this lawsuit or not? What do you think about it? It is a strategic level. So he thinks you are a reliable lawyer. You can be a trusted advisor for him. But if he calls you, Claudio, we are going to file a lawsuit. Do it now. So you are operating for them. So these levels change everything and you can charge more at the strategic level instead of the operational level. I think advising clients, it is the best way to turn the money into work, like a stamp as a trustworthy lawyer. Fantastic. I really appreciate you sharing that. And something interesting here is that not only you are a lawyer, but you're also a law professor and advisor. How did your mindset compare being a law firm owner when advising other business owners? Speaking about teaching law as a profession is really nice because I love to be with my students. They bring me energy and new ways to approach life and legal matters. And being a professor taught me how to turn complex matters into simple ones. A client of mine was introducing myself to his friend and he said, I think it is one of the biggest compliments that I can receive because if I am communicating better, I can reach my goals. I can, you know, convince my clients, convincing judges, convincing the other part. Thank you so much for sharing those. As you know, some of my audience here are law students, are early career professionals. I get a few messages, should I start my own firm? So from your experience, what does it really take to build and most especially sustain a law firm in today's legal market? For me, it took like three burnout episodes in my first four years to be sincere, to bear in mind the long-term vision. I think stay in the game as long as you can. Do not give up. The best things come with a long hours work. You have to build a reputation. It is very important nowadays also to deal with technology, AI, but also with your emotional resilience and your emotions overall, because I'm thinking about artificial intelligence within legal area and I think it will change almost everything, but we have to deal with our emotions. We have to deal with like our human skills, everything. What kind of advice would you give to young lawyers who are not only thinking about practicing law, but they want to have the agency of building something of their own? Yeah, excuse me. First of all, build relationships and reputation, build relationships and reputation, then be teachable and be resilient and consistent because you cannot rush, do not rush. So it is a long-term vision, long-term game. So keep that in mind and work as hard as you can and bring solutions to your clients. It's all about people. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for making the time to come in the show today, Daniel, and to share those insights. Much appreciated. I appreciate it, Dexter. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you all so much for listening to today's episode. We'll see you on the next one. Take care.