Rebuilding Law Firms, Maximum Billable Hours, and Construction Litigation with Faren Bogach

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I'm hosting Ferrin Bogash. She's a construction and infrastructure lawyer, mediator, and the founder of Construct Legal Canada. Before starting, her firm's parents spent more than a decade at Biglaw, where she became a partner and built a strong litigation practice in construction law. She later launched Construct Legal Canada with the goal of rethinking how law firms. Operate with a. Focus on client outcomes, team culture, and sustainable legal practice. She is also active in mentoring young lawyers and supporting better paths for women in the profession. Thank you so much for being here today, Fan. Thank you so much for having me, I'm so excited about this. Thank you so much. And you start off our podcast today. I'd love for you to introduce yourself, your listeners and tell us a little bit about your story, your career career and about the work that you do nowadays. So a little bit about me, I'll start at the beginning. I'm from Alberta and I grew up there when Wayne Gretzky was, you know, winning all the Stanley Cups in one of the Oilers lived on my street. And I used to have to take notes in kindergarten from kids in my class and leave them in Charlie Huddy, who was another Oilers mailbox for them to him to pass to Wayne Gretzky. I don't know if the the notes ever like made it all the way there, but that's kind of my beginning, a little bit of a beginning story, but I ended up in in Toronto. I have an economics degree. I went to Dalhousie for law school. I thought it was going to be corporate business lawyer, but then all my hobbies in law were litigation and I didn't really think about it. I was doing advocacy for students who had been charged with academic misconduct. I was mooting and suddenly all these litigation firms were offering me jobs and I was like, I guess I'm a litigator. So I worked in a small litigation firm for a few years. Then I went to a bigger firm, which we'll talk about I'm sure, and then started my own firm. I have 3 kids. I spend a lot of my time right now in hockey arenas. It's almost spring, so I'm really looking forward to being outside and not spending so much time watching hockey, even though I love them and I love what they do. About what they do, construction and infrastructure law, which I never thought I would practice. I didn't even know it was a thing when I started in law. And I just got a file. I did one at the small firm and then when I went to the big firm, I saw construction layer. I'm like, oh, I've done this before, I can help. They're like, great, we'd love people who know what we're doing, which I didn't. And I started doing more and more construction work and less and less general litigation work. And then I became a construction lawyer. And it is a fantastic area to practice. Like you look around wherever you are, everything has to be built, a school, a highway and office space, your home. And there's always a story about it being built, how it was built, why it was built. And we work on those projects every single day. You can do like the tendering or procurement process, the contract, there's a problem. If there's a change, we see how it all comes together. And then you can walk by and like see something tangible and be like, I worked on that. I didn't actually build it, but I know how parts of it were built and I know what happened. So it is a really fantastic and growing area of law. Very, very interesting and useful. I, I'd love to hear a little more about the area itself. You know, can you walk us through a little bit of what the date should date practice could look like in construction and infrastructure law? And for someone who's not very familiar with the field, you, you did mention that there's a lot of litigation involved. But I'm, I'm curious, is it, is it always mainly litigation? Is it mainly solicitor work, a mix of both? What does that look like? That's a great question. So there are construction lawyers who only do solicitor work and there are some lawyers that only do litigation, and then there are those that do both. So I've seen people be very successful if they're negotiating very complicated public procurement projects and the contracts are thousands of pages with thousands of pages of appendices. Some people focus on that and that is what they do and they're fantastic at it. There are those that only litigate. I was initially A litigator who did a little bit of contracts. I did it sometimes if a client asked me, I could do it, but I really stuck to litigation. But now I do both and my team does both. And I think we're better lawyers because of the area that we practice, that we do it so we can draft that tender document and contracts to avoid the problems we see in litigation. And then we can look for terms that we've used when drafting contracts, help litigate. And sometimes it's so beautiful when it comes together or sometimes it's so miserable when you're like, I wish this contract had a term or I wish, you know, they had litigated this differently if you looked at the section of the contract. But sometimes it comes together and it's wonderful. And I think our team is becoming more well-rounded by doing both. But again, there are people who do each and are fantastic as well. You spent more than a decade in big law before starting your own firm. So if I may ask you, can you tell us a little more about what pushed you, you know, to move from partnership in a big law firm to building something new? So I came from from a very small firm of five lawyers to Big Lot. And it was the biggest culture shock to me in so many ways, like working with different people, with different standards, different areas of law. And I got so much wonderful experience. I worked with dozens of lawyers, some I copied, some I wanted to do the complete opposite of everything they ever did. And along the way I met a lot of great people who have become clients, who've become referral sources and friends. But I wasn't always the best rule follower. I wanted to make changes and I wanted to do things differently. And that isn't always easy in a big firm because there's a lot of stakeholders who have to be involved in making decisions and the impact of the decisions impacts so many different people in different ways. So there was a time where I realized that I could either accept the infrastructure or accept that I had to leave the big firm. And it was a hard decision. I'd worked really hard to be an equity partner, all I wanted to get. But then when I got there, I went, I don't know if this is for me. And like, just to give an example, I think a breaking point was we had this fantastic associate. They were terrific and there was an issue and they needed a new assistant and I had to try. I was like, this person needs a good assistant. They're filling a lot of hours, they're working really hard. They're not getting the support, they need it. And it was just so complicated to do what I felt was a very easy thing, like swap out an assistant or find someone new. But there's processes and protocols and you know, it wasn't so easy. And then the rest is history. I decided it was time to leave and I wanted to make changes in how I practiced and impact those that I worked with and take all the wonderful things I learned from people of what to do and not to do and build my own firm that way. Fantastic, by starting your firm, can I ask you about what were some of the main things that you wanted changed when you started your own place? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the big things was just how the structure of the firm works. Because the way I sort of saw it, I had been like a high performing associate and became a partner is sometimes as high performing people, the more you work, the less you get paid in a weird sort of way, especially in the associate ranks. And I wanted to change how we worked and how we compensated people. So I implemented maximum billable hours, which is the opposite for those who don't work in big law here they mostly have minimum billable hours. So you have to bill at least X usually 17118 hundred hours a year. And we'd have these wild spreadsheets with like how many hours you built in the month if you go on vacation and if you work on a trial. But if something else happens, like how can you make sure you get all your hours plus all the non billables on top of it? And it was, I sort of thought that's not really we should be thinking as a work and not necessarily about the number of hours we have to do. And are we doing quality work? And is it billable work? And is it, you know, helping the cause? So I implemented maximum bill Bower so no one on my team can work more than 17150 hours a year. And that was the number that was agreed upon by the team. And I'm going to explain to you why they had a very big, they had a lot of, I'm gonna explain to you why they had a lot of input into the numbers in a minute. And that has to do with our compensation structure. But they can only work a certain amount of hours a year. And people say to me like, Baron, this doesn't make sense. How can you do that? What if someone's working on a trial? Do you just tell them to stop because they've hit their hours? Like that's not really how the world works. No one is 1 day at 0 hours and the next day at 1750, there's a gradual buildup of hours that you make. So you realize we're really busy and we have a trial coming. We've hired people, we've hired people to help full time. We've hired people to fill in the gaps. If we need someone to help us do some assignments on a off, like one off basis, it's totally doable. That was a big thing for me. And then the second huge thing is that we have a profit share. And the profit share is for anyone that works at the firm more than a year, staff included and lawyers. They give it their pay is part of the profits of the company and they get some of them good amounts of profit share. So if they everyone pulls their weight, does their part and you know, your hours are billable, your clients are happy, they're coming back for more work. You're not wasting, you're know, you're communicating well with them. You're not wasting time on things that aren't billable, then you're gonna make more money. And it really has changed the way everyone has looked at firm. But it also they were like, well, fair, we're getting a profit here, but we also want to make sure we work a certain amount of hours. So that's, I thought 1750 was high. It's gonna be, it's what was everyone had agreed to. So that's different. We do a lot of things by consensus. We have meetings. We make decisions differently than we had in the big firm. So we fired big clients, how we hire clients, how we make business decisions. We can just be a little bit more nimble and less afraid of the consequences of it. So it's been pretty great so far. I mean, not everything, not all our decisions have been perfect. I'd love to say that they are, but it's nice to have something you own and that the team has built together and we stand together with the decisions that are made. Amazing. Well, I, I must mention, I think I saw on LinkedIn a few days ago, you guys did some kind of hamburger tasting or something like that. Loved the team got together and all of that. So very, very cool. Yeah, we had a blind tasting of burgers. We are a fast food lovers at our firm. We try not to eat it all the time, but we do indulge and we had a great night. That's amazing. Well, one thing that stands out about the firm is, is this focus on client experience. I was reading through your materials and in your website and it really talks a lot about this focus and also just sustainable practice. You just mentioned that the maximum amount of hours. So I'm curious you to hear a little more about how does that show up in the Bay today? With your team I mean. For example I have 3 kids. Some people at our firm have kids, some have hobbies, some have a life, some love TV shows or playing video games or whatever it is. And the work we do is really important and very serious. But life is important too. And I find that people are better at their jobs, doing better work for clients and are happier and more engaged when they get a break. So it doesn't always happen. If you're in a trial, again, it's not like, oh, we just don't work during the trial. No, we're working 17 hour days. It's really hard, but we try not to work weekends a lot. We try not to work evenings unless it's urgent. And part of that is so people can enjoy their lives. And part of it is I think you actually do better work when you turn off your work brain for a little bit and take a break and come back at something the next day. You have a new perspective on it, or you take a break and the way you approach the problem or the way you write the e-mail is just different. So I think that has made a big difference in the quality of work that we have. And I think it also helps keep people engaged in the firm. And we've had very little turnover with lawyers. And that really impacts the client experience, right? I talked to a friend at a big firm. She was associate #12 on a file that wasn't that long because people kept leaving and changing. And that's not always good for the clients or the work product. So I think allowing people to take breaks so they stay and keep on the file in the long term is much better than someone who would just grind and work on the file continuously and maybe burn out. So for us, it's worked so far and I hope it continues to do. So talking a little more about your practice, you did mention that there's like a solicitor aspect to a barristers aspect to it. And I'm curious, from your perspective, what are some of the most common mistakes that companies will make in construction projects that later will turn into legal fights? I think they don't deal with conflicts early and head on and I don't know and I don't believe this just applies to construction. People want to avoid conflicts and I understand why completely because I deal with conflicts all the time. But not dealing with a concern early on can have huge ripple effects in the project. So give you an example. We review a contract from someone, tell them there are a lot of terms that are problematic. If the, if the project goes S, if there's a problem, you are gonna have a huge amount of risk and it's gonna be problematic. And that's fine, fair, don't worry. They sign it and then something goes wrong and it's a huge problem because they didn't want to have that discussion early on. They didn't want to try to deal with that risk early on. I'm not saying they had to pass all the risk over, but maybe splitting it. The same happens when there are delays on jobs or changes. People don't want to have to deal with it right away. We're late projects late. Let's accept that it's late. Let's make a plan to solve it and we'll deal with this lateness, this small lateness now, later. But instead they don't deal with it and gets worse and no one knows how they're dealing with it and everyone's trying to cover for it and there's no real plan to fix it and everyone's blaming everyone. And then it gets even later. Or the the one change that you could solve becomes 12 changes that needs to be solved. So I think it's about really working as a team and trying to solve and deal with problems head on early before things get out of control. But I think that probably applies to many areas of law. Well, it sounds like something that that we can take in our personal lives and really just applies to about everything. I love it. Well, something that I also read that that you've spoken about in the past is mentoring lawyers and building bearing bearing environments in the profession. So you've mentioned, I know you're trying to do that with your firm and I'm curious I once you hear more a little bit about your perspectives on that and and even what do you think young lawyers need most today that they often do not get early in their? Careers. So everyone I think needs something different, Although there's a theme to this. When I became a mentor at the big firm where you got to mentor an articling student, it was like a very big honor. Not only did you get like a big lunch budget that you could take them out to fancy restaurants and all that fun stuff, but also I took my job really seriously. And when I first became a mentor, my goal was I'm going to make sure all my mentees get hired back to make sure they find groups they like and they're going to get hired. And like by the third year, I realized like that wasn't right for everyone or possible for all of them. And, you know, while that was my goal to be the best mentor and make sure my students got their choice of jobs, that wasn't totally the right way of looking at it. And I realized that they had to have a good articling experience. That's what all of them needed. And for each of them, it was different. So what it meant is good experience, getting to work in the areas they want ability and what I find out the ability of the independence, but to have someone right there behind them to help them and be there for them and have their back. So, you know, the best mentoring is to let people kind of take those steps, put them in the the deep end, but don't walk away. You know, you're right there, you have the life preserver, you're coaching, I'm on what to do and Judy can jump in and help them if they need it. And I find that really allows people to learn and grow. And when mistakes happen, because like things happen that are not ideal in our cases all the time. Or you do something and you wish you had done something else to be supportive, to listen, talk about what the options were and how you do it differently next time. Like that's the best way to learn. And not to blame or shame people for making mistakes, but have a conversation about it. And sometimes I was having a conversation that speaks with really shave done it differently. I said, no, I, I really, after all my years of experience, I don't think you should have done differently. You made the right decision. It just didn't turn out the way that you had wanted like with the information you had when you made the decision, you made the right decision even though we didn't solve resolve the case. And I think it helped them feel better. But having that independence to be free to do it, make some mistakes that have us good safety net is. Health fantastic too. close our episode today. Why don't you ask you what's one piece of practical advice you'd give to younger lawyers who are trying to build a meaningful career, a sustainable career, once you really thrive in the profession? So when I started, I was too afraid to take anyone up on their offers to help or reach out to anyone to talk to them about their careers or learn more or ask for help or get more information. And it was so foolish. The legal profession is full of people that will help you, that will mentor you, that will give you advice, that will you're, you're working on a file and you have a question. They will answer your question without asking to get paid, without asking for anything in return. And people are so happy to help and engage with junior lawyers who are starting their careers and young lawyers. And the worst thing to do is just not try and like, not ask for help or reach out to people like, and what will happen? What's the worst thing that will happen if you do reach out? They won't respond to you. Like the stakes are so low. And the best thing is you can make valuable connections, referral sources. You could get a job from someone one day. You could make friends from it. So I think just get out there, pick up the phone, send an e-mail, someone sent someone a LinkedIn message to say you like their posts and engage with them. And what you will get in return is far more than what you ask for. And then you will pay it forward. And I think I wish I had done it earlier in my career. I'm still catching up, but it has just been so rewarding to connect with so many different people with different backgrounds and learn so much from them. I really appreciate you taking the time to be in the podcast and to sharing your insights. It's been an honor. Thank you so much for having me, this was great.